Ah I thought that you'd stumbled across a magnificent example of a rarity of efficiency in Indian defence procurement. Bugger.
Indian Military Aviation; News, Updates & Discussions
- Thread starter Twinblade
- Start date
Air Force Brat
Member
Yep, it would be nice if the Indians would figure out how to "get on with it", but my memory was correct, they launched prototype number 1 off the land based ramp on or about 12/20/2014, so the LCA is capable of operating off the ramp... but if memory serves?? that program is in trouble??
Don't know. Who would know though. My own person view is that the LCA biggest problem is HAL which is basically a govt department complete with bureaucracy.
FORBIN
Member
Fortunately he can India don't have CATOBAR CV
possible the 2nd Vikrant in 2030
The plan has always been to go CATOBAR and they have been seriously looking at EMALS. They had significant experience with CATOBAR, but the personnel with that experience have long retired.Fortunately he can India don't have CATOBAR CV
FORBIN
Member
You see regulars Indians Military problems the list is long with very competent administration !!!
in more they are unlucky ! BTW very funny sometimes
and i am not an anti-Indian poster only facts, if the 3th Indian CV is in service for 2025 - 2028 they will have made very strong !For EMALS ofc US now don't build steam cats or second hands but C-13-1/2 do 98 m used on the Nimitz too long for 2nd Vikrant.
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John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Until the USN EMALS system is redesigned for better serviceability, better to wait. Having to shut down the whole system to fix one launcher out of four is beyond stupid.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
From the RNZN thread, Mr. C commented,
"As for asking AW and Dassault? I would ask AW why 6 years ago some of their execs were slipping undisclosed "facilitation payments" to a small group of underpaid Indian officials (all connected with the Congress Party now out of power). A case of questioning the corporate governance of AW in my view just as much as the flaws on the Indian side. Some AW execs did time and Indian officials jailed or fired - good. As for Dassault well they are working with another Indian firm Reliance Aerospace for the 36 Rafale deal. HAL got the Shornet business and LM India the F-16V for the in country manufacturing dimension rather than the previous Rafale 126 joblot deal with HAL started under again the former Congress party regime. That is business and politics and both change. Dassault have responded to the request for a further 57 for the Indian Navy."
Sorry for promised late reply here. I am not up to speed on the AW issue but charges against the AW Euro executives were dismissed I believe. IIRC Indian officials changed the altitude specification which allowed the AW-101 into the competition, rightly or wrongly. Anyway, the fighter issue is more important. Concerning the 110 jet tender, nothing has been selected yet. Media reports in India are negative on Reliance Aerospace. Apparently they have zero experience in aerospace. As for HAL, we will have to wait and see if Boeing fares better than Dassault in dealing with them.
Certainly India has some interesting proposals, e.g. F-16 production line in India, substantial Indian content for SH assembled in India, same for Dassault, MiG etc. Then there is the navy tender for 57 fighters. Boeing claims the SH can do STOBAR so Boeing and Rafale (if it is STOBAR capable) can both offer a combined AF/Navy bid assuming that is permissible. IMO, a combined 167 jet order for SH along with the 100 plus USN requirement as well as the 36 jet Kuwait order should allow a very aggressive bid from Boeing.
Rafale fighter jet deal is a Rs 1.30 trillion defence scam, says Congress
As I am not an expert on Indian affairs perhaps the locals can comment on the link.
"As for asking AW and Dassault? I would ask AW why 6 years ago some of their execs were slipping undisclosed "facilitation payments" to a small group of underpaid Indian officials (all connected with the Congress Party now out of power). A case of questioning the corporate governance of AW in my view just as much as the flaws on the Indian side. Some AW execs did time and Indian officials jailed or fired - good. As for Dassault well they are working with another Indian firm Reliance Aerospace for the 36 Rafale deal. HAL got the Shornet business and LM India the F-16V for the in country manufacturing dimension rather than the previous Rafale 126 joblot deal with HAL started under again the former Congress party regime. That is business and politics and both change. Dassault have responded to the request for a further 57 for the Indian Navy."
Sorry for promised late reply here. I am not up to speed on the AW issue but charges against the AW Euro executives were dismissed I believe. IIRC Indian officials changed the altitude specification which allowed the AW-101 into the competition, rightly or wrongly. Anyway, the fighter issue is more important. Concerning the 110 jet tender, nothing has been selected yet. Media reports in India are negative on Reliance Aerospace. Apparently they have zero experience in aerospace. As for HAL, we will have to wait and see if Boeing fares better than Dassault in dealing with them.
Certainly India has some interesting proposals, e.g. F-16 production line in India, substantial Indian content for SH assembled in India, same for Dassault, MiG etc. Then there is the navy tender for 57 fighters. Boeing claims the SH can do STOBAR so Boeing and Rafale (if it is STOBAR capable) can both offer a combined AF/Navy bid assuming that is permissible. IMO, a combined 167 jet order for SH along with the 100 plus USN requirement as well as the 36 jet Kuwait order should allow a very aggressive bid from Boeing.
Rafale fighter jet deal is a Rs 1.30 trillion defence scam, says Congress
As I am not an expert on Indian affairs perhaps the locals can comment on the link.
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John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Here is some pricing information on the 36 Rafales purchased by India. While it is always difficult to compare various deals, the link does mention a base jet price of 91 million Euros. I would have to think the Boeing could, even with the new block version, do better. I am going to repost this in the RCAF thread to point that at least one Euro contender does not seem to be price competitive with the F-35.
Why the 36 Rafale meant for India are the most potent in the world - Republic World
Why the 36 Rafale meant for India are the most potent in the world - Republic World
t68
Well-Known Member
I take it that is with engine as some deals engines are an extra charge, not 100%sure if the F35 fits that catorgery as I belive early price was minus engines from what I remember earlier in the F35B thread
IIRC prices without engines tend to be a US thing, because of US purchasing habits, in which all engines including spare ones are often listed as a separate item from the aircraft without engines. I think the French (& other countries) tend to give a price for the whole aircraft, with all spares (including spare engines) being classed under support costs.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
If the F-35 cost needs an engine cost added to it, the price gets close to equal. The question then is about situation awareness, stealth, weapons compatibility and support. Then there is Canada's aerospace business opportunities with the F-35. I just don't see Dassault being able to counter that and I think the same applies to Boeing. This assumes the actual build number for F-35s is at least 3,000 jets which seems likely.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
https://m-scmp-com.cdn.ampproject.o...?amp_js_v=a2&_gsa=1&=1#amp_tf=From %1$s
Found this article on the controversy of Rafale purchase toward Indian politics on further defense procurement.
Although I found the article bit exogerating stating Pakistan now have an edge toward India on conventional military..
However the article correctly pointed out (in my opinion) the messy politics in India can influence toward modernisation pace of Indian Armed Forces.
Frankly speaking with BJP taunted policies of Made in India defense procurement..they should put forward Tejas Mk2 development and procurement, rather than bogged down on various foreign procurement deals.
Found this article on the controversy of Rafale purchase toward Indian politics on further defense procurement.
Although I found the article bit exogerating stating Pakistan now have an edge toward India on conventional military..
However the article correctly pointed out (in my opinion) the messy politics in India can influence toward modernisation pace of Indian Armed Forces.
Frankly speaking with BJP taunted policies of Made in India defense procurement..they should put forward Tejas Mk2 development and procurement, rather than bogged down on various foreign procurement deals.
I think that the biggest problem Tejas has is that it is a HAL program, with HAL basically being an Indian government department, therefore being encumbered by all the associated bureaucracy, politics and shenanigans. Everything is most likely by committee at every level, so no wonder that it has taken so long. I think that if the Tejas was developed by an Indian private company then the development, prototyping process and introduction into service, would have been significantly faster and cheaper. My own opinion is that "Make in India" is good as long as it is private companies who are doing it, and that government bureaucracy and interference is an absolute minimum. Unfortunately that won't happen because I suspect that there are to many vested interests.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Here's a link with comments about why the 36 jets from Dassault were purchased. Seems reasonable to me but pollies can argue forever, especially the Indian and Canadian varieties.
New Delhi bought 36 Rafales as “emergency” buy
New Delhi bought 36 Rafales as “emergency” buy
SpazSinbad
Active Member
For a few years now the F-35 price has included engines whilst this fact is usually always included in any article about such matters (but sometimes not). And yes earlier prices (some time ago now) did not include engine which was a separate cost - not so today though. When LM says the F-35A price is trending towards their goal of $80 million (currently around $89) then that price includes the engine.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Dassault has put another statement about the 36 jet order, this time wrt its partnership with Reliance aerospace in order to calm the political waters no doubt.
Dassault seeks to quell Indian Rafale media furore
Dassault seeks to quell Indian Rafale media furore
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Well it looks India’s fighter replacement will be delayed until after the election, a familiar story for us in Canada. At least India has managed an order for 36 NEW Rafales. A better outcome than around two dozen or so thirty year old well used classic Hornets!
Made-In-India fighters: Rafale fire rains on MiG’s retirement parade
Made-In-India fighters: Rafale fire rains on MiG’s retirement parade
That may be a practical decision and is similar to what happens in NZ where the P-8 decision wasn't made until after the last election.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Boeing has joined other vendors in promising manufacturing in India. With India having already committed to 36 Rafales, one would think that gives them an edge but both LM and Boeing can be aggressive. A SH or Rafale purchase for both the AF and Navy would simplify the maintenance but I guess LM would have a cost advantage for the 110 jets the AF wants. Russia can probably undercut everyone but perhaps India has tired of substandard after sale support.
AERO INDIA: Boeing offers India futuristic Super Hornet factory
AERO INDIA: Boeing offers India futuristic Super Hornet factory