Given the larger physical size and smaller crew of the Hunters, how would it impact on the livability on a deployment like this.
Do such issues have a great impact on crew retention.
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Do such issues have a great impact on crew retention.
I’m not current with these issues but I would have thought that thr new frigates size would provide much more comfortable messing conditions.
By way of comparison the mess decks, wardroom, and CPO/PO messes on the old DDGs were atrocious and the Vietnam deployments were just as long but from my experience and from what I heard, most of those who served in them would choose them over a pissant T12 every time.
I think you join up to serve, not to enjoy a luxury seagoing experience.
The new ships would be I imagine quite a lot more livable. More space everywhere, walk ways, toilets, mess areas, accommodation, they have a huge internal flex space and a sizeable hanger and aft deck. They are also designed to embark something like up to 72 soldiers, so when not doing that, they would have some space, which is useful for things like training crews, embarked media, deployment related specialists, intel, etc, which tend to eat into regular accommodations. Or upgrades. Those new VLS tubes will go through the gym area and toilet number 2, and we have converted that small storage space into a server rack, so everyone has to sleep with a sack of flour.
I imagine they would be particularly suited to long deployments, and I recall in conversation they were looking at things like fly in fly out crewing in the UK for their middle east deployments.
With more time at sea and long deployments it can become an issue. While old salty dogs may disagree, we also no longer just have stacks of hammocks 6 high and serve a piece of tack and a cup of water. There is an expectation that ships can be flexible and do many things.
I think its less about luxury but just space. Often at an extreme premium, particularly on things like subs. One of the comments when I toured a Collins with a dozen O-boat sailors is they all said Collins in some spots was tighter and more packed than the o-boats ever were, even on big trips (like commissioning sails or long patrols). In some ways things had gone much further forward, in others things had gone backwards. Systems and services had gobbled up all that extra displacement.
I imagine they would be particularly suited to long deployments, and I recall in conversation they were looking at things like fly in fly out crewing in the UK for their middle east deployments.
With more time at sea and long deployments it can become an issue. While old salty dogs may disagree, we also no longer just have stacks of hammocks 6 high and serve a piece of tack and a cup of water. There is an expectation that ships can be flexible and do many things.
I think its less about luxury but just space. Often at an extreme premium, particularly on things like subs. One of the comments when I toured a Collins with a dozen O-boat sailors is they all said Collins in some spots was tighter and more packed than the o-boats ever were, even on big trips (like commissioning sails or long patrols). In some ways things had gone much further forward, in others things had gone backwards. Systems and services had gobbled up all that extra displacement.
B.A.E. in its 3 d simulator had claimed that ergonomics could be factored in the designs you could imagine that equipment and tasks could be assessed in such a way to avoid hazardous manual handling and find other efficiencies . Legislation covering this may be under Comcares Occupational overuse syndrome this is different to W.H.S legislation
I am not a sailor and my only experience of submarines has been tours of one Foxtrot and one of the "O" boats - ex HMAS Otway I think.
I could not believe how little space was available inside them. Inside Otway, I became quite claustrophobic and couldn't get out fast enough. I am not normally that bad and handled the Cu Chi tunnels near Saigon very well
If the Collins class are tighter than the "O" boats then that's a real squeeze.
MB
Don't get me wrong. The o boats aren't spacious. You can feel the hull is much much smaller. But the openings seem easier to get through although there are many more of them. The Oboats feel like nearly everything is mounted on the hull so there is this bigger feel in many of the spaces. By bigger it is still like the movie Das boot, but there is more central space.
Collins feels like it is just chock full of stuff, and the narrowest passageways possible are put in. If you are any reasonable size, you have to walk shoulder first shuffling between much of the equipment in the main passageways.
Maybe it was because everyone was expecting "bigger" but collins is bloody tight in many sections. Oddly the toilets felt humongous, and you don't have to have your legs in the corridor. But other parts felt extremely tight.
Collins feels like it is just chock full of stuff, and the narrowest passageways possible are put in. If you are any reasonable size, you have to walk shoulder first shuffling between much of the equipment in the main passageways.
Maybe it was because everyone was expecting "bigger" but collins is bloody tight in many sections. Oddly the toilets felt humongous, and you don't have to have your legs in the corridor. But other parts felt extremely tight.
The Collins Class have a lot more internal space than the O boats and certainly the sleeping arrangements and a quantum leap. I am not sure why anybody would describe the Collins as tighter. An O boat rigged for patrol was packed with additional kit and crew with food, belongings and other stuff stored everywhere. Even one of the four traps (toilets) was used to house a shredder in some cases.I am not a sailor and my only experience of submarines has been tours of one Foxtrot and one of the "O" boats - ex HMAS Otway I think.
I could not believe how little space was available inside them. Inside Otway, I became quite claustrophobic and couldn't get out fast enough. I am not normally that bad and handled the Cu Chi tunnels near Saigon very well
If the Collins class are tighter than the "O" boats then that's a real squeeze.
MB
The bunks in the passage way on a O boat restrict access as you have to avoid bumping folk and the eating arrangements are diabolical for the crew.
Ovens and Onslow are both on display and they seem very open when not filled with crew and ‘stuff’ ..... you just get used to it!
Whilst I was not a submariner I did spend some time in them and particularly the Brit O boat Onslaught during. A three week exercise in the Far East. We surfaced once.
The most awkward thing was the traps, to pee one had to bend over backwards to follow the curve of the hull, which makes aiming hit and miss
and that legendary use of toilet paper, “one up, one down and one to polish”.(so that a trail of dunny paper doesn’t give away your position)The smell of sweat and dieso permeates the entire boat and takes weeks to remove from your uniforms, hot bunking is never a problem in those conditions.
I haven’t been on a Collins but have seen photographs and I can assure our listeners that their conditions are a vast improvement on Their predecessors.
Much respect to the submariners.
Really makes being a paratrooper a bit ordinary. Those blokes earn every penny they get, and I hope its plenty! I imagine the camaraderie would be outstanding, and only they would know and understand.
Really makes being a paratrooper a bit ordinary. Those blokes earn every penny they get, and I hope its plenty! I imagine the camaraderie would be outstanding, and only they would know and understand.
I guess my point was, that even though Collins is a massive improvement and much more modern than the o-boats and physically larger, it is hardly luxurious and is not wasteful in its space. They are different. Sure there are less bulk head doors, but the doors on collins seemed more awkward to get through. It ain't no surface ship. But it feels like a different century to the o-boats.
Certainly in comparison to large nuclear boats. People were still sleeping on top of or underneath torpedoes, you are still in close quarters with people. Many spaces are still tight and you other complexities like more computers and systems, mixed gender crew. Sure collins even has a gym, they proudly showed me the rowing machine they had tucked away under the torpedos, which they can pull out and use in corridor. They also had a nifty toilet/sink combo in the engine room.
But it isn't like you see on say the US submarine.
Just chillin practicing yoga and telling yarns in the gym in the sub on a Virginia class.
I am sure a near 9000t surface ship sounds like a cruise ship for those that served on ships built immediately post WW2. But I am sure in the end it will be fitted with more stuff and crew luxuries will be an improvement but fairly minimal.
I hope the new subs are a bit roomier.
Certainly in comparison to large nuclear boats. People were still sleeping on top of or underneath torpedoes, you are still in close quarters with people. Many spaces are still tight and you other complexities like more computers and systems, mixed gender crew. Sure collins even has a gym, they proudly showed me the rowing machine they had tucked away under the torpedos, which they can pull out and use in corridor. They also had a nifty toilet/sink combo in the engine room.
But it isn't like you see on say the US submarine.
Just chillin practicing yoga and telling yarns in the gym in the sub on a Virginia class.
I am sure a near 9000t surface ship sounds like a cruise ship for those that served on ships built immediately post WW2. But I am sure in the end it will be fitted with more stuff and crew luxuries will be an improvement but fairly minimal.
I hope the new subs are a bit roomier.
Mate that gym ..... is the torpedo compartment. They are midships on USN SSNs as this means the tubes don't interfere with the Bow sonar. The water tight doors on an O boat are wide and the passage ways a smidge wider ......... but that is because they are a living space. The only enclose living space not in a acces way as the Super Chiefs tram car for three in front of the wardroom (next the sink ammusingly referred to as the wardroom pantry), the Wardroom (for three), the Senior sails mess (six I think) and the captains cabin (his feet jut out of his cabin into a covered box by the plot table and the after periscope round about). This means at any time when moving through the boat you are dealing with moving humanity.I guess my point was, that even though Collins is a massive improvement and much more modern than the o-boats and physically larger, it is hardly luxurious and is not wasteful in its space. They are different. Sure there are less bulk head doors, but the doors on collins seemed more awkward to get through. It ain't no surface ship. But it feels like a different century to the o-boats.
Certainly in comparison to large nuclear boats. People were still sleeping on top of or underneath torpedoes, you are still in close quarters with people. Many spaces are still tight and you other complexities like more computers and systems, mixed gender crew. Sure collins even has a gym, they proudly showed me the rowing machine they had tucked away under the torpedos, which they can pull out and use in corridor. They also had a nifty toilet/sink combo in the engine room.
But it isn't like you see on say the US submarine.
Just chillin practicing yoga and telling yarns in the gym in the sub on a Virginia class.
I am sure a near 9000t surface ship sounds like a cruise ship for those that served on ships built immediately post WW2. But I am sure in the end it will be fitted with more stuff and crew luxuries will be an improvement but fairly minimal.
I hope the new subs are a bit roomier.
God help you as Nav if you don't get out of your bunk at action stations in a hurry .... it is at floor level outside the wardroom and every bugger is running past there.
I am not a sailor and my only experience of submarines has been tours of one Foxtrot and one of the "O" boats - ex HMAS Otway I think.
I could not believe how little space was available inside them. Inside Otway, I became quite claustrophobic and couldn't get out fast enough. I am not normally that bad and handled the Cu Chi tunnels near Saigon very well
If the Collins class are tighter than the "O" boats then that's a real squeeze.
MB
Lucky enough to go through an O boat having a visit in Geelong of all places some decades ago.
Certainly a tight fit for all, but it was the prevalent smell of fuel and oil that stood out for me.
Hats off to the crew and those who serve.
Regards S
Boagrius
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You and me both. Nothing but the utmost respect for those that serve on these vessels.
Also, another issue with that hull is that it has less volume within the hull than the Collins currently,
So there is no point lowering size, without much growth room.
I know, but compartmentalizing an already small space doesn't exactly make it more spacious. There is a lot more privacy and specific rooms. But the old o-boat salts were quite surprised. They had visions of it being a lot more roomy. Which it wasn't. Stuff ends up taking up the space. If you were claustrophobic, Standing in the server corridor on Collins, or trying to shuffle through the bulk head doors into the escape space isn't exactly going to put your mind at rest.
I hope the Barracuda design concepts include some more space. They don't have to be quite as massive as the USN stuff. But if you want to make them crewable and deploy longer than even USN subs, habitability is an issue.
There was less internal diameter because they were double hulled.
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