Royal Air Force (RAF-UK) Discussions and Updates

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
That does not match up with the programme timelines for either the E-10, or what is now known as the KC-46A Pegasus.

By the time the October, 2007 online edition of the Air Force Magazine was published, the E-10. What became the KC-46 did not get selected until Feb. 2011 following a particularly convoluted and torturous procurement programme that had witnessed several different aircraft designs entered by the competitors, investigations which led to criminal convictions and prison sentences, contracts being awarded and then challenged and re-bid, and so on...
Boeing even with their early iteration of their 767 based tanker project were right from the start factoring additional capabilities out of the platform. This is early 2000's prior to the E-10 and the KC-767. Well before the timeline you are contemplating.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Boeing even with their early iteration of their 767 based tanker project were right from the start factoring additional capabilities out of the platform. This is early 2000's prior to the E-10 and the KC-767. Well before the timeline you are contemplating.
I would need to check and see what I can find regarding both the initial KC-X competition, as well as the first and 2nd Boeing submissions and the KC-30 submission. At present I do not recall the initial programme being intended to replicate some of the RC-135 or E-8 capabilities, and if such capabilities were not in the RFP, I do not see why a defence contractor would expend funds to add such capabilities since the unasked for capabilities would be excluded from providing an advantage at contract award decisions get made. In point of fact, this was the argument Boeing made and the GAO agreed with which led to the contract award for KC-30 to be overturned and a new KC-X competition being held.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
I would need to check and see what I can find regarding both the initial KC-X competition, as well as the first and 2nd Boeing submissions and the KC-30 submission. At present I do not recall the initial programme being intended to replicate some of the RC-135 or E-8 capabilities, and if such capabilities were not in the RFP, I do not see why a defence contractor would expend funds to add such capabilities since the unasked for capabilities would be excluded from providing an advantage at contract award decisions get made. In point of fact, this was the argument Boeing made and the GAO agreed with which led to the contract award for KC-30 to be overturned and a new KC-X competition being held.
Good grief I am not talking specifically about the KC-X competition in and of itself. I was mentioning the development considerations that were conducted by Boeing in the lead up to all this nearly 20 years ago. Their quite obvious commercial consideration that the 76 platform had potential for other capabilities that Boeing had delivered through the 135 family and the legitimate commercial expectation that the aging 135 platform was going to be eventually replaced. That is no way assuming that they were attempting a frankenstein tanker, transport, AEW&C, flying command post, joint stars all in one boondoggle.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Doesn't the radar capabilities of the globaleye offer not just a replacement for the E-3 but also the sentinel
Perhaps, though the Sentinel R1 AFAIK has sensors that are optimized for ground scanning/surveillance. It appears that some versions of the Globaleye can be fitted with a ground-scanning radar with GMTI Realistically though, we do not know how well the sensor performance of that would compare with the AESA aboard the Sentinel.

For that matter, I suspect a properly kitted out P-8 Poseidon (especially if fitted with the radar derived from the AN/APS-149 AESA) would possess a greater ground surveillance capability.

If/when the RAF replaces their E-3 Sentries, I believe they will opt for US-sourced AEW systems, as I believe they will be easier to integrate in the overall US/NATO battlesystem, if the systems selected are not already integrated.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
AFAIK we've not fully followed that track, failing to implement recent upgrades & improvements.
That's why the current suggested cost for E3 upgrades is so high - the RAF is looking at 2bn to get the cabs back on track and Australia's Wedgetail buy was a bit less than that so adjusting the cost forward from their purchase, it's close as far as I can see, which is possibly why the RAF/MOD are thinking in terms of "well, we've had our money's worth.."

I'm leaning towards "shut up and take my money" and grabbing Wedgetail.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Perhaps, though the Sentinel R1 AFAIK has sensors that are optimized for ground scanning/surveillance. It appears that some versions of the Globaleye can be fitted with a ground-scanning radar with GMTI Realistically though, we do not know how well the sensor performance of that would compare with the AESA aboard the Sentinel.

For that matter, I suspect a properly kitted out P-8 Poseidon (especially if fitted with the radar derived from the AN/APS-149 AESA) would possess a greater ground surveillance capability.

If/when the RAF replaces their E-3 Sentries, I believe they will opt for US-sourced AEW systems, as I believe they will be easier to integrate in the overall US/NATO battlesystem, if the systems selected are not already integrated.
The original Erieye was integrated into NATO systems when Greece bought it, & I think the Israeli EL/W-2085 AEW&C system has been integrated for Italy, since it bought the G550 CAEW. AFAIK updating Erieye to Erieye ER is unlikely to cause any integration issues.

I have doubts about putting everything on one aircraft. The (optional, I think) maritime surveillance/surface search radar on Globaleye is a version of the Leonardo Seaspray, & while it seems to be agreed that the Seaspray family are good radars, the largest is physically much smaller than the Raytheon radar on the Sentinel. That could be just because it's newer technology, but I suspect that's probably not the whole reason, & the bigger radar is more capable. Having a radar equivalent to that of the Sentinel as well as the AEW radar looks to me like a bit much to ask from an aircraft the size of the Global 6000.

They could put all the kit on a bigger aircraft of course, e.g. an A320neo, but the RAF's got very wary of custom-built solutions when there's an OTS alternative since Nimrod.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
I think there's a bit of a case to be made for using one airframe as well - P8/E7 - type qualifications to fly it would be common (the missions are very different but the only thing different on a P8 from the civilian model in terms of the cockpit, is a small panel of switches to one side that controls the master arm and some other military stuff - I suspect Wedgetail is very much the same - and the maintenance requirements would be common in the main. Very common spares chain, common pilot qualifications, I'm seeing some savings there.

SAAB would have to have a very compelling case...
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Yeah, now we've ordered the P-8 the logistics argument is very much in favour of the E-7. I cannot judge the relative merits of the different radars (& no doubt both will be upgraded - I'm not sure if there's much left of the original Erieye), but all else being equal something on the same platform has to be the favourite.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
UK unveils new next generation fighter jet called Tempest

The Brits look like they are starting work on their next generation fighter.

There seems to be a long list of countries currently falling over themselves to build the next generation fighter. The Japanese, Germans and French, Koreans and Turks have all announced their intentions so it isn't surprising that Britain is throwing their hat into the ring.

It will be interesting to see who partners up with them. I have a feeling the Swedes might be interested.

Who knows ... post Britex there might even be a push for a commonwealth fighter.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
UK unveils new next generation fighter jet called Tempest

The Brits look like they are starting work on their next generation fighter.

There seems to be a long list of countries currently falling over themselves to build the next generation fighter. The Japanese, Germans and French, Koreans and Turks have all announced their intentions so it isn't surprising that Britain is throwing their hat into the ring.

It will be interesting to see who partners up with them. I have a feeling the Swedes might be interested.

Who knows ... post Britex there might even be a push for a commonwealth fighter.
Like I posted on the the Military Aviation thread, these jets are just too expensive for solo nation efforts. As for a Commonwealth effort, a frightening thought for the RCAF. Junior might say "hey guys, no F-35s because I am going to buy 6th fighters designed in the U.K. and built by my friends at Bombardier".:eek:
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Like I posted on the the Military Aviation thread, these jets are just too expensive for solo nation efforts. As for a Commonwealth effort, a frightening thought for the RCAF. Junior might say "hey guys, no F-35s because I am going to buy 6th fighters designed in the U.K. and built by my friends at Bombardier".:eek:
True ... but if you combine the GDP of the UK, Canada and Australia you suddenly have an economy ranked just behind The US and China. It makes sense for those three countries to work together on these sorts of projects.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
True ... but if you combine the GDP of the UK, Canada and Australia you suddenly have an economy ranked just behind The US and China. It makes sense for those three countries to work together on these sorts of projects.
The problem with such an idea (of the three nations working together on a project like this) IMO is that while the economies of the nations might be comparable to the US or PRC, one also needs to look at the defence industrial capacity, and especially the sectors of defence industry which would be needed for a fighter aircraft product.

I personally doubt that the Australian, Canadian, and UK-based divisions of the various multi-national defence conglomerates would have the resources required to develop 6th gen fighter systems on their own, without receiving assistance from outside of the the ABC nations.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Or the Italians, who are already mentioned in that article as a partner. Leonardo is one of the ten largest defence companies in the world

oldsig
The French and Germans have pretty much excluded the rest of Europe from being tier one partners in their project so there might be a few disgruntled countries looking elsewhere. Possibly it might just end up with the old Eurofighter partners teaming up without Germany.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
UK unveils new next generation fighter jet called Tempest

The Brits look like they are starting work on their next generation fighter.

There seems to be a long list of countries currently falling over themselves to build the next generation fighter. The Japanese, Germans and French, Koreans and Turks have all announced their intentions so it isn't surprising that Britain is throwing their hat into the ring.

It will be interesting to see who partners up with them. I have a feeling the Swedes might be interested.

Who knows ... post Britex there might even be a push for a commonwealth fighter.
I love the name. I'd already thought that it would be my favourite for a follow-on to Typhoon. I know it's a bit obvious, but sometimes things are obvious because they're right.

I can see the Italians being interested. After all, the British arm of an Italian firm is already deeply involved - Leonardo. I agree that Sweden's another possibility.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Or the Italians, who are already mentioned in that article as a partner. Leonardo is one of the ten largest defence companies in the world

oldsig
Yeah, but I expect that the initial Italian involvement is via their British arm. It includes the old Ferranti radar operation, & makes the Seaspray, Osprey, PicoSAR Vixen 500E, ES-05 Raven (for Gripen), etc. radars & has a share in the Typhoon radars (CAPTOR & the AESA successor), as well as various other military electronics, decoys, & so on.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Wonder what possible partners other than the US would be a fit for a ABC fighter?
I love the name. I'd already thought that it would be my favourite for a follow-on to Typhoon. I know it's a bit obvious, but sometimes things are obvious because they're right.

I can see the Italians being interested. After all, the British arm of an Italian firm is already deeply involved - Leonardo. I agree that Sweden's another possibility.

Sweden and Italy along with the UK as principal lead in the project seems less stressful than Franco- German collaboration with the UK given the Brexit, situation. That being said, two 6th Gen projects in Europe is a duplication of effort at a time when money is limited. With three potential Western 6th or 5+ jets being considered ( not including the US), IMO the cost will doom all them to failure as the biggest market (the US) won’t buy. One non Us program yes, two doubtful, and three, a receipe for failure.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Interesting . . . the chief exec of BAE says that systems will start life on the Typhoon then move to Tempest.

UK unveils new Tempest fighter jet model
So rather than a Big Bang all-at-once new development, the plan seems to be to develop new systems & upgrade Typhoon, while developing an airframe for which those systems can be the initial fit-out. I can see a certain logic in that.
 

the concerned

Active Member
Thinking about this has the MOD or RAF actually issued what set of capabilities they want in a new aircraft. If not then you have a company telling the customer what it wants and that would not work.
 
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