Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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StevoJH

The Bunker Group
And if the software is capable of being ported across the newer hardware, that would allow significant improvement in the precision of the calculations in the same amount of allowed time.

With the effectiveness of the weapons system increasing by the same amount. And this is with no physical changes to the mount itself beyond possibly upgrading whatever computer equipment is on-mount.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
In Naval technology, the adage "If it aint broke, don't fix it " is often carried as a chant by Navies, as well as the equipment manufacturers. This common sense approach means that weapons like Phalanx can be operated for periods of 30+ years & to be honest, it makes sense.

Purchase costs, maintenance costs, training of crews, spares are all key to this. If governments opted to change out equipment for 'the next newest/best thing', countries would soon become bankrupt, as technology development appears to be running at a pace not seen in humankind's lifetime.

So, a navy planning to purchase hardware / equipment like Phalanx, operating it across their fleet, moving mounts from class to class (dependant on operational need / replacement of vessel classes) means that overall costs are reduced.

In the meantime the Equipment suppliers have a 'known quantity' as the hardware remains, so they concentrate on the software, or specific sensor developments, to improve range/accuracy/ability to operate in different conditions/modes. This is where the technology changes & actually makes an old weapon a 'new' weapon. Examples of this might be the UK's 4,5" gun which was based off of 1950's technology, but will still be on warships into the 2020's.
The RAN currently has a stock of 12 Phalanx systems which have all been sent back to the states over the last few years as the Ships they were originally fitted to LHAs, FFGs are decommissioned, to be refitted to the latest standard and will be fitted over the comming years to the LHDs(2-3), Supply class AORs and Choules so no the RAN has no plans to get rid of Phalanx.
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
The aegis radar on the future Hunter class would it be equivalent to baseline 9 there was the issue in ordering the baseline 7 for the Hobart which then has to be upgraded to 9 for BMD capability
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
Thanks to Todjaeger and Systems Addict for your thorough and eloquent responses. The main concern to me with Phalanx rests on whether the 20mm round still has the range and on-target effect to do the job. I suspect something that is superior in both metrics will be needed in due course. Hell, I think you could make a compelling argument that it is needed now/imminently.

Nevertheless, it seems like ESSM in its various iterations will have to be the mainstay of the RAN's close-in AShM defence arsenal for the foreseeable future.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I appreciate your concerns & the fact that navies are still looking at Phalanx / goalkeeper as their last line of defence says a lot.

The sheer amount of computational power needed to calculate wind velocities, wind direction, humidity, air temperature, ships course, ships speed, ships pitch. ships roll, gun rate of fire, expected velocity of the round, distance to target, speed of target, direction of target & a million other inconsequential factors that have to be looked at & analysed, in the split second before firing & during the gap between each round makes my brain melt !
Therefore managing to get a 30mm gun to put x3 rounds on a 30m long target, travelling at 600 knots, 3 km from the ship, is no easy feat.
I know that it's not impossible & with the right software / newer designed munitions such as the 30mm PELE round & a smidgen of luck, it can happen.

http://www.angelopodesta.com/documenti/30mm_x_173_PELE-T_PMC_381.pdf
30 m long? That would be an enormous AShM, did you mean a 3 m long target, as that seems more likely, 30 m would be fairly long even for a fighter jet.

Looking at the Mk 15 Block 1B Phalanx it could fire for ~21 seconds (completely exhausting the ready ammo) and get 1,550 projectiles in the air in that time effective out to ~1.5 km.

In ~15 seconds, the Millennium Gun could fire (and again exhausting the supply of ready ammo) 252 rounds, and if using AHEAD ammunition getting 38,304 sub-projectiles out.

IMO the guns would be more likely to fire in bursts lasting a second to a few seconds in duration, and a one second burst from a Millennium Gun using AHEAD ammunition would get ~1,800 sub-projectiles with a total weight of ~6 kg in the air. While I would not describe it as 'easy' for such a gun/munition combo to score hits on an inbound missile at 3 km, it would be far more likely to do so than a Mk 44 Bushmaster II firing the PELE munition mentioned in the same time frame, as the there would only be four complete rounds fired in the same timespan, and the PELE rounds do not appear to break apart until hitting the target. In that same single second timeframe, a Mk 15 Block 1B Phalanx could get ~75 projectiles off with a total weight of ~11.25 kg, assuming the newer/heavier Mk 244 Enhanced Lethality Cartridges were used. Statistically I would expect the AHEAD ammunition to score more hits (and at a potentially greater distance) given the significantly greater number of total projectiles in the air, ~24x as many, albeit smaller/lighter than the 20 mm munition of the Mk 15.

While these are intended to be CIWS so they really are 'last ditch' weapons to deal with any leakers that penetrated the area air defences, I would still expect weapons which can put out a larger number of projectiles or sub-projectiles and do so at a greater distance, all within a very brief amount of time, to be statically more effective.
 
Gosh, this new software is difficult....

I have raised concerns about the 8.8kT full-load issue but would request - if possible (and publically available) - that if the GCS-A is sized for this then what are the expectations of growth for the class (as it is slightly smaller than the Burke-III). Also the CEAFAR mast looks heavier than the simpler Glasgow-class; does this effect stability (top-weight)?

Would be interested if 'Samoa' or 'SystemsAddict' could add some public info for - ahem - the public.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Thanks to Todjaeger and Systems Addict for your thorough and eloquent responses. The main concern to me with Phalanx rests on whether the 20mm round still has the range and on-target effect to do the job. I suspect something that is superior in both metrics will be needed in due course. Hell, I think you could make a compelling argument that it is needed now/imminently.

Nevertheless, it seems like ESSM in its various iterations will have to be the mainstay of the RAN's close-in AShM defence arsenal for the foreseeable future.
This is why Australia is putting so much effort into the ability to kill the threat long before the Missile can get anywhere near a Ship. It starts with ISR assets like the Sub Fleet, the new G550 finding out what the enemy is up to. Then MQ-4s and P-8s to find the enemy, F-35s, EA-18Gs, P-8s, Subs, MH-60Rs, SSMs, SM-2/6 to kill the Launch platforms before launch(which is always the prefere option)then SM-2, ESSM, to kill the Missile, then Decoy systems and CIWS as the last resort.
No matter how good no Captain ever wants to have to rely on his CIWS to kill a Missile.
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
This is why Australia is putting so much effort into the ability to kill the threat long before the Missile can get anywhere near a Ship. It starts with ISR assets like the Sub Fleet, the new G550 finding out what the enemy is up to. Then MQ-4s and P-8s to find the enemy, F-35s, EA-18Gs, P-8s, Subs, MH-60Rs, SSMs, SM-2/6 to kill the Launch platforms before launch(which is always the prefere option)then SM-2, ESSM, to kill the Missile, then Decoy systems and CIWS as the last resort.
No matter how good no Captain ever wants to have to rely on his CIWS to kill a Missile.
No argument there! Still, you want your last ditch defence method to work against the threat if needed, otherwise why bother with it. Question to me is how much longer Phalanx will remain fit for purpose.

I suppose there are also various emerging technologies that seem to be poised to encroach on the CIWS space explicitly. Directed energy weapons, HVPs, guided naval ammunition (eg. DART), railguns... I could see any one (or more) of these eventually taking up the niche Phalanx currently occupies on RAN surface combatants.
 
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ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Chris,

The difference is no greater than that between the Darings/T12s and the old DDGs/FFGs, and we managed that successfully for 30 years or so. The current DDGs are very close to the USN in approach, and we have found the troops have adapted easily to the few minor diffeences, such as the frame numbering starting from stern rather than bow. While there’s not an awful lot of us left from the when the RN system was nearly universal in the RAN, it’s still in all the basic books, and Choules runs it of course. I reckon it will be an almost trivial issue.
Yes I understand that it can be managed but what is also true is that DDG sailors nearly always were posted to DDCs and Daring and T12 sailors stayed there, it made the training task easier.
This is not a critical factor, simply an embuggerance.
 

Samoa

Member
Now that the selection has been made I must confess it wasn’t my first choice although I acknowledge T26 was always the superior platform.
My reasons were based on risk, price and commonality, and I thought the F5000 would get there on all those three.
It’s good to see the government has provided the funds to make the gold plated option possible.
I would like to take the opportunity to address at least the first of your points, namely that of risk. I recognise that you will immediate understand the points I reference, but I wanted to expand on them for a broad audience, as others may not, so please do not construe this as condescending.

There is no doubt one of the enduring positives touted for the F-5000 was that of lower risk, with a consensus that the industry base, namely ASC was familiar with the build and practise for that design. This is only one consideration of the total risk metric used to judge which total submission (not just design) is of lowest risk. Remember that under SEA5000 a considerable expansion of the entire build is being undertaken at the ASC facility as witnessed by the installation of a plate line, new work stations/platforms and other new supporting infrastructure. This adds new elements to the build process which differ from previous, which would apply irrespective of the design chosen. Also it is already acknowledged within ASC, that a significant portion of the skills built during the AWD have started to atrophy. That will need to be rejuvenated for SEA5000 as recognised by the PM and ministers in the announcement. This reduces the value of a known build, and this premise is based on an assumption that you are in fact building the same product. If that was true we would be building another AWD, and that ship has long sailed. I hear you now, your not yet convinced and I would expect a learned man to be rightfully so wary.

So what other elements are factored into an assessment of risk ? How about the ability of the design to meet requirements. As stated, and well reinforced publicly, this design needed to be an ASW platform. This is reinforced by the requirements and the operational scenarios that underpin the assessment criteria. GCS-A provided the best level of capability in matching those requirements, based on a minimum change principal. That is as a designed solution. While a question has been raised about a proven capability versus an intended or designed capability, what is certain is what level of OQE that supports the compliancy of those requirements was scrutinised by experts in the field to make judgement of which design meets those requirements, as the intended designed baseline. Further it is recognised that engineering changes to the current design can enhance compliancy to those requirements, but doing so adds risk to fruition if the platform is inherently not an ASW platform from the onset. You might be surprised, or not, that GCS-A needed the least amount of change to meet those requirements, an in-fact others needed significantly more. This has been recognised by Defence as this was a subject of assessment some years back to determine if it was “feasible” to make the AWD design into an ASW platform. The answer was yes, but at what risk ? On this judgement of risk, GCS-A scored highest. I recognise that it is one thing to state a capability and another to deliver it, so you continue to critique the assessment looking for nicks in the armour. A scorned man scorns best, and those who served scorn with the best of them. In order to quench that scorn, you need to be convinced that a design that is not proven at sea is going to be capable. The significance here is that ALL of the elements that are key to meeting those requirements are at sea, just not embodied in something called the Type 26. These have been witnessed by Navy.

If we consider the other key objectives of the SEA5000 programme, you will note that a continuous Naval ship building program is one. This is not a program where we aim to build the ‘same’ ship each time. Sure that will keep hands busy in the yards, but will it provide the Navy with capability relevant platforms into the future. The CN has stated that Ship 9 will not be the same as Ship 1. What this points towards is a continuous engineering and development cycle in parallel to a continuous build program to enhance overall capability to ensure each and every new build has the best chance of being capability relevant. This is akin to Flights, but at a lower level of granularity. Otherwise we risk providing just good ships that are the same as those that were commissioned many years previous. During the AWD construction, one catch cry what that of the delay due to the impact of change during a build program. A sound and mature approach to managing change, which is efficient, expedient, rigorous and regimented that supports roll out in production build artefacts is absolutely key to minimising the risk of impact to build and subsequent delays to ship delivery. The simple answer is to stop change, so the production workforce has unhampered progression, but then we can never have capability enhancements without ramifications. I for one, make no apology for a build program that is not willing and able to accept change where it relevant to our servicemen needs solely based on the fact it might interrupt their day. The digital ship build process offered with GCS-A is the closest design, procurement, build and production process which can meet this need with any predictably of consequence, and that needs to be understood and embodied into the engineering and production environment as part of the sovereign capability transfer to Australian industry.

Other risk factors include the likelihood of the design being able to embody those future capabilities and that is not just in platform margins, the ability of the parent company to support the objectives, and likelihood and willingness of developing Australian industry, and the list goes on. While all of this may seem to be going down a hypothetical definition or risk, all I am stating is that a singular assessment of risk is not what constitutes a total assessment of lowest risk. When balanced the positives offered under the GCS-A submission well and truly offset any residual risk judgement that remained. It is that metric of balance that gains the favour of the outcome with respect to Risk.
 

76mmGuns

Active Member
Regarding commonality, any chance of the type 26 30 mm guns being replaced by fast forty guns, you think? If all 12 opv 80s had them as well, that'd be 30 of them.

I wonder what the bulk discount is like ? Can't imagine whoever makes them -bae, oto melara; sells many of them in any numbers.
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
30 m long? That would be an enormous AShM, did you mean a 3 m long target, as that seems more likely, 30 m would be fairly long even for a fighter jet.
Apologies - half asleep this morning when I typed that.

You are correct in the assumption that I was aiming to go for the length of an aircraft (circa 10 - 20m MAX long)
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Gosh, this new software is difficult....

I have raised concerns about the 8.8kT full-load issue but would request - if possible (and publically available) - that if the GCS-A is sized for this then what are the expectations of growth for the class (as it is slightly smaller than the Burke-III). Also the CEAFAR mast looks heavier than the simpler Glasgow-class; does this effect stability (top-weight)?

Would be interested if 'Samoa' or 'SystemsAddict' could add some public info for - ahem - the public.
I'm not working on GCS-A, so I can't provide any comment, as I simply don't know (apart from that even if I was, I think there'd be a bit of an 'issue' discussing the technicalities of the design in open forums). However, from a generic shipbuilding point of view I know that masts are 'confusing', as although the look big n bulky, the Naval Artichokes know only too well the weight up high in any ship design is BAD !

In my experience, most mast are simply empty boxes, made up of many smaller, odd shaped compartments. These spaces often only carry the bare essential equipment (such as control panels / racks), for the various Electronic monitoring systems (Radars / Electro-Optics / Passive tracking systems / Comms & jammers). In traditional ships, they have at least x1 large rotating radar at the top of the mast & it's only there to due to the efficacy of having a radar at height to maximise tracking range.

Modern ships that utilise 'stealthier' arrangements obviously don't have that much of an issue with rotating weight up high, due to the technology behind phased-array radars. Some of these mast are designed from 'exotic materials' like carbon fibre, around a skeletal steel framework which in itself is designed to accommodate the shape of the antennae, so that the frame of the array actually helps provide some of the structural integrity of the mast.

These modern masts are also lighter than full steel plated ones, so help reduce the overall weight of the ship. Finally their shape is also a factor, as the design is tested in wind tunnels (scale models) as well as fluid computational analysis, to work out structural strength, robustness to oncoming wind & weather, as well as the 'wake effects' ofthe wind blowing round the mast, across the upper deck, funnels, etc. The wake effect can also cause additional problems with the helicopter taking off / landing, or any missile launchers / silos that are aft of it...
 
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Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Apologies - half asleep this morning when I typed that.

You are correct in the assumption that I was aiming to go for the length of an aircraft (circa 10 - 20m MAX long)
No worries. I have lost count of the number of times that I have gone back and re-read something I posted, only to find it only semi-comprehensible due to missing or using the wrong words or terms.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
The Sub 5000t Frigate field is starting to get very crowded so you may have to work very hard for orders.
UK : Arrowhead 140
Italy : PPA
France : FTI
Germany : A200N
Spain/Norway : F312
Korea : Incheon class
Netherlands : Sigma family
Denmark : Iver Huitfeldt
All modern Modular designs.
Good Luck
Not all sub 5000 tons. According to builders or the commissioning navies -
Arrowhead 140 - 5700 tons
PPA - 5000 tons light, ca 6000 full load.
Iver Huitfeldt - 5460 (standard?) to 6645 (full load)

F310 class is just over 5000 tons full load.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Can't help be feel that politics might have something to do with it. Frigates sound less threatening than destroyers and are there for less likely to upset the neighbours.

In my opinion though as soon as the decided to incorporate the Aegis weapons system into the design it effectively became a destroyer.

Agree with the perception of ship definition.
Maybe we could of classed the Hunter class as the "not so friendly to submarines patrol boat".
Don't want to upset the neighbours.

Regards S
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I would like to take the opportunity to address at least the first of your points, namely that of risk. I recognise that you will immediate understand the points I reference, but I wanted to expand on them for a broad audience, as others may not, so please do not construe this as condescending.

There is no doubt one of the enduring positives touted for the F-5000 was that of lower risk, with a consensus that the industry base, namely ASC was familiar with the build and practise for that design. This is only one consideration of the total risk metric used to judge which total submission (not just design) is of lowest risk. Remember that under SEA5000 a considerable expansion of the entire build is being undertaken at the ASC facility as witnessed by the installation of a plate line, new work stations/platforms and other new supporting infrastructure. This adds new elements to the build process which differ from previous, which would apply irrespective of the design chosen. Also it is already acknowledged within ASC, that a significant portion of the skills built during the AWD have started to atrophy. That will need to be rejuvenated for SEA5000 as recognised by the PM and ministers in the announcement. This reduces the value of a known build, and this premise is based on an assumption that you are in fact building the same product. If that was true we would be building another AWD, and that ship has long sailed. I hear you now, your not yet convinced and I would expect a learned man to be rightfully so wary.

So what other elements are factored into an assessment of risk ? How about the ability of the design to meet requirements. As stated, and well reinforced publicly, this design needed to be an ASW platform. This is reinforced by the requirements and the operational scenarios that underpin the assessment criteria. GCS-A provided the best level of capability in matching those requirements, based on a minimum change principal. That is as a designed solution. While a question has been raised about a proven capability versus an intended or designed capability, what is certain is what level of OQE that supports the compliancy of those requirements was scrutinised by experts in the field to make judgement of which design meets those requirements, as the intended designed baseline. Further it is recognised that engineering changes to the current design can enhance compliancy to those requirements, but doing so adds risk to fruition if the platform is inherently not an ASW platform from the onset. You might be surprised, or not, that GCS-A needed the least amount of change to meet those requirements, an in-fact others needed significantly more. This has been recognised by Defence as this was a subject of assessment some years back to determine if it was “feasible” to make the AWD design into an ASW platform. The answer was yes, but at what risk ? On this judgement of risk, GCS-A scored highest. I recognise that it is one thing to state a capability and another to deliver it, so you continue to critique the assessment looking for nicks in the armour. A scorned man scorns best, and those who served scorn with the best of them. In order to quench that scorn, you need to be convinced that a design that is not proven at sea is going to be capable. The significance here is that ALL of the elements that are key to meeting those requirements are at sea, just not embodied in something called the Type 26. These have been witnessed by Navy.

If we consider the other key objectives of the SEA5000 programme, you will note that a continuous Naval ship building program is one. This is not a program where we aim to build the ‘same’ ship each time. Sure that will keep hands busy in the yards, but will it provide the Navy with capability relevant platforms into the future. The CN has stated that Ship 9 will not be the same as Ship 1. What this points towards is a continuous engineering and development cycle in parallel to a continuous build program to enhance overall capability to ensure each and every new build has the best chance of being capability relevant. This is akin to Flights, but at a lower level of granularity. Otherwise we risk providing just good ships that are the same as those that were commissioned many years previous. During the AWD construction, one catch cry what that of the delay due to the impact of change during a build program. A sound and mature approach to managing change, which is efficient, expedient, rigorous and regimented that supports roll out in production build artefacts is absolutely key to minimising the risk of impact to build and subsequent delays to ship delivery. The simple answer is to stop change, so the production workforce has unhampered progression, but then we can never have capability enhancements without ramifications. I for one, make no apology for a build program that is not willing and able to accept change where it relevant to our servicemen needs solely based on the fact it might interrupt their day. The digital ship build process offered with GCS-A is the closest design, procurement, build and production process which can meet this need with any predictably of consequence, and that needs to be understood and embodied into the engineering and production environment as part of the sovereign capability transfer to Australian industry.

Other risk factors include the likelihood of the design being able to embody those future capabilities and that is not just in platform margins, the ability of the parent company to support the objectives, and likelihood and willingness of developing Australian industry, and the list goes on. While all of this may seem to be going down a hypothetical definition or risk, all I am stating is that a singular assessment of risk is not what constitutes a total assessment of lowest risk. When balanced the positives offered under the GCS-A submission well and truly offset any residual risk judgement that remained. It is that metric of balance that gains the favour of the outcome with respect to Risk.
Thank you for your comprehensive answer and explanation of mitigating the risk factors for the build.
The much maligned CEP has produced a process that seems a step above any previous assessments of competing tenders.
Many here understood that the evolution of the ships would occur and I for one had assumed that would be through a number of “Flights” but it seems the continuous engineering development has outgrown that concept.
Your contribution is appreciated.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Is there any chance some of the F-5000 upgrades may be rolled onto the DDG's. Such as the two helicopter arrangement and the ceafar radar?
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Is there any chance some of the F-5000 upgrades may be rolled onto the DDG's. Such as the two helicopter arrangement and the ceafar radar?
I doubt either will be considered. The changes for two helicopters will not be minor and we are upgrading the AEGIS system in the DDG to baseline 9. I suspect the DDG will follow the USN upgrades to the AEGIS and SPY family.

The modifications you suggest will be very expensive and the continuous build programme was intended to avoid such costly half life rebuilds.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Not all sub 5000 tons. According to builders or the commissioning navies -
Arrowhead 140 - 5700 tons
PPA - 5000 tons light, ca 6000 full load.
Iver Huitfeldt - 5460 (standard?) to 6645 (full load)

F310 class is just over 5000 tons full load.
Thanks Swerve you are correct, maybe should have said Sub 6000t but the whole point of the Post was that those Ships are going to be the main competetors to any Type 31 Exports and the UK will have to work very hard to get any Sales.
 
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