Australian Army Discussions and Updates

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I wonder if there are rubber tracks that can quickly and easily be put over the wheels and taken off in the field, that will help a 8x8 wheeled turned into a tracked vehicle. Suddenly the Boxer CRV with rubber tracks could potentially be used as a tracked infantry fighting vehicle in wet and muddy condition.

Something like this perhaps: Rubber over tyre track - Cautrac
A potential issue for something like that would be needing to ensure there was sufficient clearance around the tyres for the tracks to fit over the tyres. Also there could be a gearing issue depending on what options there are for controlling distribution of power to the wheels as well as changes adaptions to enable the vehicle to turn. From the images I have found of the Boxer though, some hull redesign would be needed since portions of the hull come down between the wheels in spaces where such a track would need to pass through.
 
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Milne Bay

Active Member
A potential issue for something like that would be needing to ensure there was sufficient clearance around the tyres for the tracks to fit over the tyres. Also there could be a gearing issue depending on what options there are for controlling distribution of power to the wheels as well as changes adaptions to enable the vehicle to turn. From the images I have found of the Boxer though, some hull redesign would be needed since portions of the hull come down between the wheels in spaces where such a track would need to pass through.
Even if it could be fitted - it would only apply to the rear wheels as the Boxer is four wheel steered by the front wheels.
More trouble than it's worth I think
MB
 

Navor86

Member
I doubt there is a link with much information for Plan KEOGH, as it isn’t well developed yet. [...]reducing the size of infantry platoons, [...}
What is the current make up of an Aussie Infantry platoon and any ideas in which direction the re-org of the platoons will go?
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Everything old is new again - the platoon will once again be three sections of nine, plus PHQ. The motorised battalions will have sections with one dedicated driver plus eight dismounts, while the mechanised battlalions will have a crew of three plus six dismounts. Of course, if the battalion is dismounted they will simply have nine man dismount sections. There will be a support section of 12 at company level as well.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Everything old is new again - the platoon will once again be three sections of nine, plus PHQ. The motorised battalions will have sections with one dedicated driver plus eight dismounts, while the mechanised battlalions will have a crew of three plus six dismounts. Of course, if the battalion is dismounted they will simply have nine man dismount sections. There will be a support section of 12 at company level as well.
Hi Raven

Some questions regarding the platoon structure.

As a reservist in the 80's I recall the platoon had 3 x sections of 9 plus a HQ of Sig, SGT and Lt for a platoon of 30 PAX. ( trust the memory is correct. )
I think the doctrine was a Platoon could be lifted be 3 x M113's but still the infantry were separate to the crewing of the vehicle.
As light infantry the APC were just transport and in some ways no different to a truck or any form of air transport.

As we move forward and we have the reg Battalions as either Mechanised of motorised I'm still not sure how the structure works in the modern context.
I can understand if the Infantry are always with their respective vehicle types for the role intended ; however I would imagine with our relatively small army and diversity of roles, that both Brigade Battalions will be required to perform away from their vehicles particularly for low intensity of HADR operations.

I ask out of curiosity not critisism
Stampede
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The latest and largest rotation of US Marines arrive in Darwin. In general they are well received here although there will always be a cohort of (I will leave the descriptive phrases to others) idealists who oppose the deployment.
They will remain based in Darwin, but spending much time away on exercises, until October.
They're just in time to help clean up after TC Marcus which blew the vegetation apart but it is a testament for the local strict cyclone building codes which prevented any structural damage,

No cookies | NT News
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Hi Raven

Some questions regarding the platoon structure.

As a reservist in the 80's I recall the platoon had 3 x sections of 9 plus a HQ of Sig, SGT and Lt for a platoon of 30 PAX. ( trust the memory is correct. )
I think the doctrine was a Platoon could be lifted be 3 x M113's but still the infantry were separate to the crewing of the vehicle.
As light infantry the APC were just transport and in some ways no different to a truck or any form of air transport.

As we move forward and we have the reg Battalions as either Mechanised of motorised I'm still not sure how the structure works in the modern context.
I can understand if the Infantry are always with their respective vehicle types for the role intended ; however I would imagine with our relatively small army and diversity of roles, that both Brigade Battalions will be required to perform away from their vehicles particularly for low intensity of HADR operations.

I ask out of curiosity not critisism
Stampede
Thinking that the vehicle is just a taxi to get to the battlefield is a very dangerous concept. Infantry and armour are the two key component of the combined arms team, and trying to ignore one has been the undoing of many an army. It was one reason the idea of standard infantry battalions, able to do anything (lifted in APCs, lifted in PMVs, lifted in helos, walk etc) was always aspirational, and not really practical. It’s fine in theory, but in the real world where there is only finite training time it doesn’t work. You either have to specialise in something and be good at it, or specialise in nothing and be average at everything.

It was no surprise that the same rifle companies kept getting allocated to the ACRs every exercise, as by the time you got them proficient at mechanised ops, why would you start again with someone else? Having been an APC troop leader in 3 Bde in the pre-Beersheba days, after having previously been in 1 Bde, it was pretty clear to me that the army would never achieve a high standard of mechanised ops with standard infantry battalions. There just wouldn’t be enough experience outside of the ACR. Considering a Beersheeba brigade is a mechanised brigade in all but name, that was never going to be the best way to do business, IF a proficiency in mechanised ops was desired.

The biggest advantage of going back to dedicated mechanised battalions is you can actually design an orbat that makes sense for mechanised ops. For example, a standard infantry battalion that is designed to be light, and only lifted by APCs occasionally, can’t have vehicle based mortars. A dedicated mech battalion can, and probably 120mm mortars to boot. The impacts to Land 400 Phase 3 are obvious. Same with DFSW platoon. With standard infantry battalions, the DFSW platoon was going to be lifted in Land 400 IFVs (with 30mm cannon and 4000m+ ranged ATGMs) to delivery them to the battlefield to employ their .50 cal, GMGs, GSMGs, 84s and 2500m ranged ATGMs. What would be the point in that? A proper mech battalion can have have dedicated DFSW vehicles, just with a few dismounted Javelin/Spike in the back in case they have to do a dismounted anti armour ambush or something.

As you’ve stated, the disadvantage of dedicated battalions is a loss in flexibility. This is true, but it is true of a lot of other things too. For example the JSF for the RAAF isn’t going to be much use for anything more than high end warfighting, yet no one is arguing for something more flexible at the lower ends of the warfighting scale instead. If the nation desires a high end mechanised capability, and the fact we are spending tens of billions of dollars on CRVs, IFVs, tanks, under armour breaching etc suggests we do, then that loss of flexibility can be accepted. Besides, it really isn’t that hard to dismount a battalion for some peacekeeping somewhere in the world - we’ve done it before. We’ve even re-roled gunners and engineers into light infantry without issues.

The only problem with dedicated mech battalions is the training burden on the infantry. The new IFVs are going to be incredibly complex to operate - just as complex as the tank. The previous approach the infantry used for M113 training isn’t going to cut it. Unless we integrate RAAC personnel into the mech battalions (which is on the table), probably the only way to achieve a high standard of training is to create a specific career stream for mechanised infantry. Soldiers would join up either as ‘light’ or ‘mech’, and serve their careers in one or the other. That is clearly a significant cultural shift for the infantry, so it will be interesting to see what happens.
 

RubiconNZ

The Wanderer
Must have missed that post by Raven. I guess its going to come down to wether they believe that a reduced fleet of tracked vehicle mixed with wheeled can deliver the same outcomes, by reducing the order for phase 2 to fit the budget will they have to do the same with phase 3 if they go the preferred way of Puma?
I think the strategic environment has evolved to such a level at least in a public way and the current Aus government relatively hard line in defence I think Phase 3 will stay. Pure armchair speculation and dependant on what colour government is when it comes to main gate approval.
 

Navor86

Member
In the first official confirmation of the number of platforms under consideration, the Phase 3 RfI refers to 312 turreted direct-fire high-survivability IFVs, 26 command-and-control vehicles, 16 Joint Fires vehicles, 11 engineer reconnaissance vehicles, 14 ambulances, 14 recovery vehicles, 18 repair vehicles, and 39 combat engineer variants. The phase also includes 17 manoeuvre support vehicles (MSVs).
Read more at More on Land 400 Phase 3 - Australian Defence Magazine
I always wondered why there are so many direct fire IFV under consideration?
Most NATO Mech Infantry Bn´s field around 44 IFV.
Now that the ADF plans to field 3 Mech units you would need 132 IFV for those units. Even if you are generous and order 200 turreted IFV that would still leave you with 68 vehicles for training, deployment and maintenance reserves.
Are they planning to give some to the Reserves or maybe even standing up a 4th company in each mechanized unit?
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I always wondered why there are so many direct fire IFV under consideration?
Most NATO Mech Infantry Bn´s field around 44 IFV.

Now that the ADF plans to field 3 Mech units you would need 132 IFV for those units. Even if you are generous and order 200 turreted IFV that would still leave you with 68 vehicles for training, deployment and maintenance reserves.
Are they planning to give some to the Reserves or maybe even standing up a 4th company in each mechanized unit?
That basis of provisioning was based on the previous model of standard infantry battalions. For that orbat up to 26 turreted IFVs were needed to lift a single rifle company (~85 per battalion), hence the large numbers. While a battalion with greater than a hundred ~40 tonnes AFVs would have a lot of combat power, it isn’t the best use of scarce resources.

With the move back to dedicated mech battalions, you only need 14 IFV to lift a rifle company, and the buy of turreted IFV is expected to be much less.
 
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MARKMILES77

Active Member
I notice there is no requirement for Phase 3 Vehicles as Mortar Carriers.
Are they retaining the M113AS4s for that role or are they not planning to operate any vehicle mounted mortars?
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Thinking that the vehicle is just a taxi to get to the battlefield is a very dangerous concept. Infantry and armour are the two key component of the combined arms team, and trying to ignore one has been the undoing of many an army. It was one reason the idea of standard infantry battalions, able to do anything (lifted in APCs, lifted in PMVs, lifted in helos, walk etc) was always aspirational, and not really practical. It’s fine in theory, but in the real world where there is only finite training time it doesn’t work. You either have to specialise in something and be good at it, or specialise in nothing and be average at everything.

It was no surprise that the same rifle companies kept getting allocated to the ACRs every exercise, as by the time you got them proficient at mechanised ops, why would you start again with someone else? Having been an APC troop leader in 3 Bde in the pre-Beersheba days, after having previously been in 1 Bde, it was pretty clear to me that the army would never achieve a high standard of mechanised ops with standard infantry battalions. There just wouldn’t be enough experience outside of the ACR. Considering a Beersheeba brigade is a mechanised brigade in all but name, that was never going to be the best way to do business, IF a proficiency in mechanised ops was desired.

The biggest advantage of going back to dedicated mechanised battalions is you can actually design an orbat that makes sense for mechanised ops. For example, a standard infantry battalion that is designed to be light, and only lifted by APCs occasionally, can’t have vehicle based mortars. A dedicated mech battalion can, and probably 120mm mortars to boot. The impacts to Land 400 Phase 3 are obvious. Same with DFSW platoon. With standard infantry battalions, the DFSW platoon was going to be lifted in Land 400 IFVs (with 30mm cannon and 4000m+ ranged ATGMs) to delivery them to the battlefield to employ their .50 cal, GMGs, GSMGs, 84s and 2500m ranged ATGMs. What would be the point in that? A proper mech battalion can have have dedicated DFSW vehicles, just with a few dismounted Javelin/Spike in the back in case they have to do a dismounted anti armour ambush or something.

As you’ve stated, the disadvantage of dedicated battalions is a loss in flexibility. This is true, but it is true of a lot of other things too. For example the JSF for the RAAF isn’t going to be much use for anything more than high end warfighting, yet no one is arguing for something more flexible at the lower ends of the warfighting scale instead. If the nation desires a high end mechanised capability, and the fact we are spending tens of billions of dollars on CRVs, IFVs, tanks, under armour breaching etc suggests we do, then that loss of flexibility can be accepted. Besides, it really isn’t that hard to dismount a battalion for some peacekeeping somewhere in the world - we’ve done it before. We’ve even re-roled gunners and engineers into light infantry without issues.

The only problem with dedicated mech battalions is the training burden on the infantry. The new IFVs are going to be incredibly complex to operate - just as complex as the tank. The previous approach the infantry used for M113 training isn’t going to cut it. Unless we integrate RAAC personnel into the mech battalions (which is on the table), probably the only way to achieve a high standard of training is to create a specific career stream for mechanised infantry. Soldiers would join up either as ‘light’ or ‘mech’, and serve their careers in one or the other. That is clearly a significant cultural shift for the infantry, so it will be interesting to see what happens.
That basis of provisioning was based on the previous model of standard infantry battalions. For that orbat up to 26 turreted IFVs were needed to lift a single rifle company (~85 per battalion), hence the large numbers. While a battalion with greater than a hundred ~40 tonnes AFVs would have a lot of combat power, it isn’t the best use of scarce resources.

With the move back to dedicated mech battalions, you only need 14 IFV to lift a rifle company, and the buy of turreted IFV is expected to be much less.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Hi Raven

Thanks for the time and effort for a well worded response.

My wishful thinking was as you said aspirational, in that you would aspire to achieve a light infantry battalion trained in all forms of operations.( Light , Motorised, Mech, and Airborne. )......... Seems good but I get the master of none dilemma.
So the future looks very much one of specialisation.
I guess this raises many questions but I'll ask just one.
How does the on line reserve Battalion fit into the Ready Brigade?
Will it be light infantry or evolve into a motorised battalion like its fellow regular Battalion within the Brigade.

A brigade with a : ACR with a SQN of MBT supported with Two CAV Sqn; mated with one Mech Inf Batt and Two Motorised Battalions is quite a force.
Interesting times

Regards S
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I notice there is no requirement for Phase 3 Vehicles as Mortar Carriers.
Are they retaining the M113AS4s for that role or are they not planning to operate any vehicle mounted mortars?
At this stage the M113AS4s will soldiers on in that role. As mentioned, however, with the move to dedicated mechanised battalions it is far more likely a dedicated vehicle mounted mortar will be acquired.
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Hi Raven

Thanks for the time and effort for a well worded response.

My wishful thinking was as you said aspirational, in that you would aspire to achieve a light infantry battalion trained in all forms of operations.( Light , Motorised, Mech, and Airborne. )......... Seems good but I get the master of none dilemma.
So the future looks very much one of specialisation.
I guess this raises many questions but I'll ask just one.
How does the on line reserve Battalion fit into the Ready Brigade?
Will it be light infantry or evolve into a motorised battalion like its fellow regular Battalion within the Brigade.

A brigade with a : ACR with a SQN of MBT supported with Two CAV Sqn; mated with one Mech Inf Batt and Two Motorised Battalions is quite a force.
Interesting times

Regards S
The future is not entirely specialised, however some level of specialisation is required to be good at anything. To expect one battalion to be able to train up to be light, mech, airmobile, amphibious etc all at once, and have the kit to be able to do all these things, is very ambitious. You could still happily convert battalions between roles, it would just take time and resources.

With the Reserve battle group, it’s role is essentially rear area security. Things like protecting HQs, the brigade maintenance area, convoy escorts etc. One would argue the Reserve isn’t particularly well set up for this role, and there’s been no intellectual rigour go into how to do rear area security anyway, but at least it is a valuable role that’s is well within the capability of the Reserve to generate within the normal raise train and sustain cycle.

There are lots of desires to turn the reinforcing battlegroup into another manoeuvre battle group, but realistically that isn’t possible outside of general mobilisation. I took a (very) small part in the 2 Div force design review, and the adherents were never really able to convince any one that you could take a reserve unit with a lower level of training and readiness than a regular unit, have them conduct far less training during the readying cycle, yet still reach the same level of training to perform the same roles as a regular unit. Particular when 2 Div still struggles to meet the training requirement of the current rear area security role.

There is a lot of potential in the Reserve, but IMO it’s greatest weakness is everyone above the rank of major who wish for a reserve that is a mirror of the ARA, rather than to provide the complementary capabilities that are actually needed and achievable. The problem is, there aren’t many jobs for colonels when all the Reserve is doing is providing reinforcements for the regular brigades.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
@MARKMILES77
Several points regarding size and cross country mobility.

Modern fire control systems for turreted guns (be it heavy ones or autocannons) reduce the „small size protects“ argument considerably. The same goes for modern ATGMs. So light recon, while having a role, is in grave danger as soon as it gets into contact with the enemy recon screen, whereas a sturdier vehicle may actually be able to fight fir information and screen one‘s own forces.

As for mobility. Modern 8x8 vehicles got quite good at cross country but they still remain at a disadvantage. A Boxer is not able to follow a modern MBT in several circumstances. A even if no MBTs are part of a task force, a tracked IFV offers lots of additional cross country capabilities over a 8x8 which can be leveraged as several nations in for example A-stan have shown (Warriors, CV99s, Marders,...).

I for one am (unsurprisingly...;)) happy about the Boxer being chosen. As others have said it may also open the door for Phase 3.

Regarding the Lynx I am sure that they are new builds and not refurbished Marders. Not the least because getting the long version out of a Marder hull looks like quite an expensive way of doing business. I think they relied heavily on proven and already paid for design solutions from the Marder and combined them with modern gizmos from their portfolio. This may enable them to get the price down (which may be the problem of the Puma) and offer an 8 dismounts hull version as icing on the cake.

With a reduced order due to the new force structure I expect the Puma to be biggest contender with the long version of the Lynx following suit. The Lance turret is AFAIK already integrated into the Puma and the Bundeswehr is nice to right now pay a premium for Spike integration so that can be usefull for the Lance turret, too. Especially as the new Spike-LR II is getting rid of most of the drawbacks of the original design without needing new launchers for integration.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
So light recon, while having a role, is in grave danger as soon as it gets into contact with the enemy recon screen, whereas a sturdier vehicle may actually be able to fight fir information and screen one‘s own forces.
Would I be right in saying that although all recce vehicles should have the means to defend themselves in the event of coming into contact with equivalent or heavier enemy units; how various armies go about conducting recce and how the arm their vehicles really depends on doctrine? Some armies believe that recce vehicles should only be lightly armed because they should never have to fight for intel; whilst other armies believe that recce units should fight for intel or be in a position where they have to engage in combat in order for them to do their job; thus should be at least armed with an auto cannon or ATGWs.

On the actual platform itself; some will still argue that despite not having the needed protection, mobility and internal volume; a smaller less visible vehicle [Weasel, Scimitar, BRDM, etc] still remains the most ideal option for dedicated scout/recce work compared to a larger vehicle [Boxer, Piranha, etc]. What are your thoughts on this?
 
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aussienscale

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
@MARKMILES77

Regarding the Lynx I am sure that they are new builds and not refurbished Marders. Not the least because getting the long version out of a Marder hull looks like quite an expensive way of doing business. I think they relied heavily on proven and already paid for design solutions from the Marder and combined them with modern gizmos from their portfolio. This may enable them to get the price down (which may be the problem of the Puma) and offer an 8 dismounts hull version as icing on the cake.
Correct they are new build hulls, modern steel etc, just based on the hull form of the Marder, with modern adaptations of course. A lot seem to be thinking they are an old style vehicle, not the case, and the internals are all pretty much common with the Boxer, so a lot of synergies with systems etc.

While Puma is the box ticker, personally I think the Lynx is the front runner, time will tell :)

Cheers
 
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