I read that item but because the antennae are fitted and plain to see I had assumed that the hardware was in and all the activity now would be set to work. I assumed that the journo had it wrong.
Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates
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It's reputed the RCN wants a range "equal to or better than the current City (Halifax) class", which would be 7000 nm (or better). I really like the design Navantia put forward for the CSC, but short of a major upgrade of the propulsion system, which I suppose is possible, AND significant extra capacity for fuel, I don't see how they can meet this requirement.
Sorry, I realize this forum is dedicated to Australian matters, but given our two countries are running concurrent competitions for very similar vessels, I find it interesting and informative to post here as the replies I get seem very informed.
Spoz is right on the conversion of ballast tanks. On the propulsion side of things the Hobart's are the same as the F105.Do you have a reference for that ? I have not heard of that before ?
Also the AWD's have different propulsion to their Spanish Friends. While both use LM-2500 IIRC the Hobarts use a different model developing more HP, and we have different diesel engines as well as a necessity of the higher displacement.
So extra fuel bunkerage makes sense, just have not seen it referenced before, or have forgotten about it
Cheers
And will that require the second and third ships to go Stateside or will they be able to do it here once Hobart is up and running (with CEC).
Cooperative Engagement Capability ............... basically a joined up information and engagement system. See attached USN fact file ...
The US Navy -- Fact File: CEC - Cooperative Engagement Capability
And a more detailed description ...
http://www.jhuapl.edu/techdigest/td/td1604/APLteam.pdf
It is dated but a good description
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Weapons design contract for future submarines to create 200 jobs
LM beat Raytheon in the submarine CS bid. Too bad we would never know what's inside each parties' proposal.....
LM beat Raytheon in the submarine CS bid. Too bad we would never know what's inside each parties' proposal.....
Found the info on the tanks, also not correct on propulsion, the Hobart's have more powerful and fuel efficient diesel engines
Air Warfare Destroyer Alliance - The Project - The Hobart Class - Differences from the F100 Class
And I have seen reference to the LM2500 also being different, which also had the info on the diesel engines too, will list if I find the reference again
Cheers
John Newman
The Bunker Group
I'm a bit confused here, is CEC currently fitted (as of 'today') to the DDGs or not? You are suggesting it is.
But according to the press release from Raytheon not yet, see below:
Raytheon News Release Archive
The relevant paragraph from Raytheon says:
"The equipment - certified hardware and software - will transfer to Australia for installation on HMAS Hobart (DDG-39), and NUSHIP Brisbane (DDG-41) over the coming months, followed by an extensive integration, test and evaluation period. Raytheon will actively support CEC system integration and testing, including scheduled sea trials, similar to support provided for the U.S. Navy fleet."
Not trying to split hairs (yes the RAN will have CEC on the DDGs), but the way the Raytheon press release from mid December 2017 reads, is that CEC will be installed 'over the coming months'.
The other interesting point to note, is that according to Raytheon, Australia is the 'first' international installation of CEC:
TEWKSBURY, Mass., (Dec. 13, 2017) – Raytheon Company (NYSE: RTN) has completed design, development and testing of its Cooperative Engagement Capability system, which will be certified by the U.S. Navy for the system’s first international installation. Onboard the Royal Australian Navy’s HMAS Hobart, CEC will expand the ship’s battlespace awareness by sharing sensor data among a network of other Australian and allied CEC-equipped ships and aircraft
I would have assumed (yes, never assume!) that a number of other US partners nations who operate AEGIS ships, such as Japan, South Korea, Spain, would also have their ships equipped with CEC, possibly not??
Ideally it will also be fitted to the Sea5000 frigates. Having a dozen ships with Aegis/CEC will give us quite a punch for our size. It would also fit in nicely with what we are doing with our aviation assets in linking them all togethor creating a kill web, doing that as much as possible with the navy and army should be of the highest priority.
The Hobart's have the same propulsion diesels as F-105, the Bravo 16V.
Quite correct - identical to F105 but not F101-104.
CEC depends a bit on how you interpret the word “transfer” doesn’t it.
Australian Destroyer Will be First Foreign Warship to Install Raytheon's Cooperative Engagement Capability - USNI
NewsIt does appear that the RAN is the first international customer for CEC. This does surprise me as the other Aegis international customers have been around much longer.
This USNI link is only one month old.
John, As far as whether the hardware is already fitted or not and although the articles you have referred, and this link state otherwise, the work required to retrofit would be quite difficult considering its size and complexity. I know the antennae are there, they can be seen so it's unlikely that the hardware would have been transferred piecemeal.
NewsIt does appear that the RAN is the first international customer for CEC. This does surprise me as the other Aegis international customers have been around much longer.
This USNI link is only one month old.
John, As far as whether the hardware is already fitted or not and although the articles you have referred, and this link state otherwise, the work required to retrofit would be quite difficult considering its size and complexity. I know the antennae are there, they can be seen so it's unlikely that the hardware would have been transferred piecemeal.
Thanks everyone with your replies. Much appreciated.
If I may, I'd like talk about upgrading the Canberra Class LHD's.
Recently I came across an article that the Italians had started work on their newest Helicopter/F-35b/amphibious assault ship, in July 2017
Fincantieri Starts Working on Italian Navy Future Landing Helicopter Dock LHD
This beauty comes highly spec'd, with features more commonly seen on frigates, like 3 x 76mm oto malera guns, decoys, advanced sensors, and VLS cells for Anti Air missiles.
Now, I know the RAN will do nothing to the Canberra's, but my thought ran like this- Recenlty Japan and South Korea announced they will convert their LHD's to full aircraft carriers, to fly F-35B's from.
If the RAN converts the Canberra's- fantastic!
But if they don't, then how about doing a bit of renovation work, giving it armament similar to the Italian LHD?
They have plenty of space for it, at least from what my amateur eyes can see.
If nothing else, place several 40mm guns on. Militias can get hold of .50 cal machine guns, and even 25mm guns reasonably easily. It's embarrassing to think that a huge ship like a LHD could theoretically be run off by a few 10m RHIB with a 25 mm guns. This couldn't possibly happen! you think...it would have a frigate escort. Yes, well....that ANZAC's only got 1 x 5 inch gun. If you have several RHIB's zipping around, 3-4km from the RAN vessels, you might miss a lot. Meanwhile, the bad guys are straffing you. But the helicopters can take off and attack from the air, you say. Well, it takes a bit of time to get them up in the air, doesn't it? And the bad guys can shoot at them while they are on the deck.
So if not 76mm guns, which need deck penetration, at least some 40mm guns, which are easier to install as they don't.
I imagine this topic has been discussed before, in some fashion. But the Italians are actually building a LHD/light carrier which has most of the features that people have put on a wish list in the past.
What do you think? Any chance the RAN will do anything substantial with the Canberra's ? (I know they will put a couple of phalnyx's on this year, not really impressed)
If I may, I'd like talk about upgrading the Canberra Class LHD's.
Recently I came across an article that the Italians had started work on their newest Helicopter/F-35b/amphibious assault ship, in July 2017
Fincantieri Starts Working on Italian Navy Future Landing Helicopter Dock LHD
This beauty comes highly spec'd, with features more commonly seen on frigates, like 3 x 76mm oto malera guns, decoys, advanced sensors, and VLS cells for Anti Air missiles.
Now, I know the RAN will do nothing to the Canberra's, but my thought ran like this- Recenlty Japan and South Korea announced they will convert their LHD's to full aircraft carriers, to fly F-35B's from.
If the RAN converts the Canberra's- fantastic!
But if they don't, then how about doing a bit of renovation work, giving it armament similar to the Italian LHD?
They have plenty of space for it, at least from what my amateur eyes can see.
If nothing else, place several 40mm guns on. Militias can get hold of .50 cal machine guns, and even 25mm guns reasonably easily. It's embarrassing to think that a huge ship like a LHD could theoretically be run off by a few 10m RHIB with a 25 mm guns. This couldn't possibly happen! you think...it would have a frigate escort. Yes, well....that ANZAC's only got 1 x 5 inch gun. If you have several RHIB's zipping around, 3-4km from the RAN vessels, you might miss a lot. Meanwhile, the bad guys are straffing you. But the helicopters can take off and attack from the air, you say. Well, it takes a bit of time to get them up in the air, doesn't it? And the bad guys can shoot at them while they are on the deck.
So if not 76mm guns, which need deck penetration, at least some 40mm guns, which are easier to install as they don't.
I imagine this topic has been discussed before, in some fashion. But the Italians are actually building a LHD/light carrier which has most of the features that people have put on a wish list in the past.
What do you think? Any chance the RAN will do anything substantial with the Canberra's ? (I know they will put a couple of phalnyx's on this year, not really impressed)
The Canberra Classs LHD already has 4x stabilised 25mm guns fitted with Toplite EO/IR directors. These already, provide a far greater firepower capability than any RHIB with a mounted gun, bouncing wildly around in the ocean.
A design is apparently being finalised to mount 3x Phalanx 20mm CIWS on them either in addition to, or more likely in place of some of the existing 25mm guns.
If more firepower were required the existing mounts can handle 30mm guns or additionally have Spike missiles integrated onto the existing mount.
These also have the benefit of no deck penetration, which the 76mm gun idea, does not...
These options provide vastly more firepower than any non-stabilised gun on a speedboat type threat and then as you’ve already identified the LHD’s won’t be going anywhere without an AWD, an ANZAC frigate or a future frigate, none of which will have the slightest difficulty with a gun on a speedboat...
A design is apparently being finalised to mount 3x Phalanx 20mm CIWS on them either in addition to, or more likely in place of some of the existing 25mm guns.
If more firepower were required the existing mounts can handle 30mm guns or additionally have Spike missiles integrated onto the existing mount.
These also have the benefit of no deck penetration, which the 76mm gun idea, does not...
These options provide vastly more firepower than any non-stabilised gun on a speedboat type threat and then as you’ve already identified the LHD’s won’t be going anywhere without an AWD, an ANZAC frigate or a future frigate, none of which will have the slightest difficulty with a gun on a speedboat...
This topic has been thrashed to death on here so I suggest that you read back through the thread. Long story short there are technical, logistical etc., reasons why this would not occur.
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