Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[ngatimozart]

I think that this would be a bloody good idea, I don't see the lack of helicopter ability as much of a downer, as I don't think that this is used over much anyway and we don't really have enough choppers anyway. the only down side is that the crews of the current OPV's may get a little scratchy as the would spend most of their time in the cold while their compatriots in the Rivers got good tropical tans.

If they can't take a joke, they shouldn't've joined :lol2

 

[ngatimozart]

Our Royal Navy friends are at present selling or preparing to sell a number of vessels - including three batch 1 River Class (Severn de-comm'd last month and Clyde and Mersey going in 2019) and the research / hydrographic vessel the HMS Scott which has recently benefited from a MLR and will be gone by 2022. Also two MCM vessels Quorn and Atherstone are also going as is HMS Ocean, Bulwark and Albion, which the Brazilians are interested in and some Type 23's which the Chileans are looking at. Evidently the Ocean is offered for £80.3 million.

If you are an idealist, perfectionist and/or ship snob who thinks we can instant up a better quick fix for such modest money or throw money at it then - don't read the following.

Back in 2009 the UK MinDef bought the 5-6 year old leased Batch 1 Rivers for £39 million as a joblot. Each vessel costed around £5 million per annum to operate in RN service. All have had fairly recent refits - said to have 10-15 years of reliable life ahead of them. By all accounts they are not in a rubbish thrashed condition compared to the 20 year old early Leander Frigates - at least that kept us as a four frigate Navy for another 15 years - when we may have well been a 2 Frigate Navy by 1984 and a zero Frigate Navy by 2004!

Even with a further pre RNZN service refit/refresh these could well be a good opportunity at what would be fire-sale prices - we have a patrol capability gap as noted by the CN earlier this year - and three Batch 1 Rivers would effectively replace the limited and slightly younger IPV's and get us through to the 2030's when the current two Protectors are likely to be replaced - thus allowing a sequenced build of replacement OPV hulls.

The RN is retaining the Tyne in the interim as it is being used in the training role for the MCM squadron - which suggests one of the three for sale vessels could cover the Manawanui whilst the LOSC is in the pipeline.

Only the Clyde has a flight deck and no hanger, but one need not get hung up about that (think S100 as a work around) - nor have the IPV's and yes they would not be able to patrol south of Cambell Island - but the SOPV would and the two current 1C Ice Protectors would back that up. The B1 Rivers would be ideal for South Pacific, EEZ and northern sea lane approaches for patrol and presence work - and in comparison to the IPV's far greater utility for other roles such as maritime fire-fighting, disaster relief, anti-pollution work (think Rena), and the Severn and Mersey with their strengthen deck and 25 tonne crane able to embark and disembark light vehicles, palletised cargo, smaller TCU containers.

Three solid unspectacular EEZ workhorse's for probably half the price of one new build VARD 7 80-90m OPV like the Samuel Beckett Class for over a decade of useful work. With the SOPV we would then effectively have six OPV's rather than two OPV and four IPV's - and get a heck of a lot more capability without a dramatic increase in personnel numbers required or annual M22 output funding. When the HMS Tyne eventually comes available snap that up as a parts mule / alongside training / accommodation vessel.

Cheers, MrC

Good idea. The Albion class would be better for NZ than HMS Ocean because the Ocean doesn't have a dock and we would just have another MRV Canterbury type, so wouldn't be of great improvement. So if we could acquire Albion, it would be a good step up in capability for the RNZN. If we got the Albion or Bulwark, I'd still keep Canterbury to provide backup and logistical support.

The Batch 1 Rivers and the droggie ship HMS Scott would be a good acquisition for NZ and I know this is not popular with some, I'd keep the IPVs and send them to the reserve divisions. That way they can learn and keep their seagoing skills current and will be a more seamless integration into the regular navy, because they will have basic and advanced seagoing skills. That is not something which only 1 x 2 week period, annually at Philomel and / or at sea, can significantly train crew or retain the skills currency. If you have reserves sea qualified, especially in the technical branches, then you have backup for when there are shortages in branches which negatively impact upon the ability to have ships at sea. Common sense really.

 

[MrConservative]

Good idea. The Albion class would be better for NZ than HMS Bulwark because the Bulwark doesn't have a dock and we would just have another MRV Canterbury type, so wouldn't be of great improvement. So if we could acquire Albion, it would be a good step up in capability for the RNZN. If we got the Albion or Bulwark, I'd still keep Canterbury to provide backup and logistical support.

I was not thinking of the Bulwark or Albion to be honest due they have huge crews. HMS Scott though has a crew establishment of 78 of which 63 are deployed to sea which is more achievable / realistic. I was more inclined to pick up on the obvious opportunities the the B1 River Class could bring to the RNZN in quickly and cheaply building capacity by addressing the hull gap shortage that wont be filled fast enough due to the reluctance to spend the $100m per hull to get brand new vessels in the water.

The Batch 1 Rivers and the droggie ship HMS Scott would be a good acquisition for NZ and I know this is not popular with some, I'd keep the IPVs and send them to the reserve divisions. That way they can learn and keep their seagoing skills current and will be a more seamless integration into the regular navy, because they will have basic and advanced seagoing skills. That is not something which only 1 x 2 week period, annually at Philomel and / or at sea, can significantly train crew or retain the skills currency. If you have reserves sea qualified, especially in the technical branches, then you have backup for when there are shortages in branches which negatively impact upon the ability to have ships at sea. Common sense really.

If there was a decision to keep the IPV's then it could be possible to keep two in New Zealand shared for sea training and the rockies. The other two could be permanently forward based in the Islands to again undertake EEZ patrols within Niue, the Cooks, the Tokelau's and Samoa whom we have a formal defence relationship with as well as Tonga, Tulavu and Fiji.

The vessels could be an opportunity to extend an initiative to embark and train local maritime enforcement agencies so as to build resilience and relationships with a larger professional Navy, whilst protecting their local fisheries resources and enabling them to effectively support their 39m Guardian Class patrol boats.

This forward basing initiative could be funded from MFAT, a contribution from local governments, a grant through the Pacific Forum / UN with the RNZN providing the vessels and expertise. It could also encompass an maritime security school.

 

[Lgjonesxjs]

I was not thinking of the Bulwark or Albion to be honest due they have huge crews. HMS Scott though has a crew establishment of 78 of which 63 are deployed to sea which is more achievable / realistic. I was more inclined to pick up on the obvious opportunities the the B1 River Class could bring to the RNZN in quickly and cheaply building capacity by addressing the hull gap shortage that wont be filled fast enough due to the reluctance to spend the $100m per hull to get brand new vessels in the water.



If there was a decision to keep the IPV's then it could be possible to keep two in New Zealand shared for sea training and the rockies. The other two could be permanently forward based in the Islands to again undertake EEZ patrols within Niue, the Cooks, the Tokelau's and Samoa whom we have a formal defence relationship with as well as Tonga, Tulavu and Fiji.

The vessels could be an opportunity to extend an initiative to embark and train local maritime enforcement agencies so as to build resilience and relationships with a larger professional Navy, whilst protecting their local fisheries resources and enabling them to effectively support their 39m Guardian Class patrol boats.

This forward basing initiative could be funded from MFAT, a contribution from local governments, a grant through the Pacific Forum / UN with the RNZN providing the vessels and expertise. It could also encompass an maritime security school.

Albion and Bulwork are sister ships so both should have well deck docks. I would prefer the RNZN to acquire an LHD or LPG to augment Canterbury, (very good idea to keep her) I like the Makkasar class but would prefer it built in Korea so maybe Dokdu class? What do you think

 

[swerve]

The Makassar class was designed in Korea, & the first two were built there.Unless the yard (Daesun) has closed down, I presume it could build another.

But why choose it over the alternatives? It's cheap, but to some extent you get what you pay for.

 

[swerve]

Good idea. The Albion class would be better for NZ than HMS Bulwark because the Bulwark doesn't have a dock and we would just have another MRV Canterbury type, ....

Bit of a mistake, there. Albion & Bulwark are the same class, & both have docks. They're identical, AFAIK.

HMS Ocean doesn't have a dock.

 

[swerve]

Our Royal Navy friends are at present selling or preparing to sell a number of vessels - including three batch 1 River Class (Severn de-comm'd last month and Clyde and Mersey going in 2019) and the research / hydrographic vessel the HMS Scott which has recently benefited from a MLR and will be gone by 2022. Also two MCM vessels Quorn and Atherstone are also going as is HMS Ocean, Bulwark and Albion, which the Brazilians are interested in and some Type 23's which the Chileans are looking at. Evidently the Ocean is offered for £80.3 million....

Bulwark, Albion, & the Type 23s aren't on sale (at least at the moment). There's a rumour that some of them are being considered for disposal or early disposal.

The current published schedule has the first T23s retiring in the 2020s, when the first T26s & T31s start entering service, & the LPDs retiring in the 2030s.

PS. The Chileans could be interested in some T23s when they retire, depending on condition. They already have a couple & are fitting CAMM to them, & will have other frigates due for scrapping.

 

[MrConservative]

Albion and Bulwork are sister ships so both should have well deck docks. I would prefer the RNZN to acquire an LHD or LPG to augment Canterbury, (very good idea to keep her) I like the Makkasar class but would prefer it built in Korea so maybe Dokdu class? What do you think

The Albion and Bulwork sales are as Swerve pointed out only rumour and speculation and as I mentioned above not something I would consider for the RNZN as they require larger crews than we would be able to realistically support. Also logistical sealift is not where the RNZN has a glaring priority gap. It is in basic patrolling viz the opinion that B1 Rivers would be an ideal quick cheap interim pickup of additional hulls.

 

[t68]

The Albion and Bulwork sales are as Swerve pointed out only rumour and speculation and as I mentioned above not something I would consider for the RNZN as they require larger crews than we would be able to realistically support. Also logistical sealift is not where the RNZN has a glaring priority gap. It is in basic patrolling viz the opinion that B1 Rivers would be an ideal quick cheap interim pickup of additional hulls.

I would have to agree here when you look at it from a pov of expanding the capability of the JATF crew size is only one hurdle.

NZ may be able to pick these up cheap in a fire sale if it were to happen, but realistically would they have value for NZ?

You cant knock their exceptional capability when it comes C&C and staff planning for up to Battalion sized operations and getting troops and heavy equipment to shore via LCU, but where I believe if falls down for NZ is the lack of hanger for rotary assets. Too increase the flexibility of the RNZN and the JATF at its core would mean a vessel that can store multiple rotary aircraft and have the ability to store aircraft larger than the NH-90. The problem I see with the Albion's is they a perfect complement to HMS Ocean I cant say the same for HMNZS Canterbury and HM Ships Albion/Bulwark

While I think Lgjonesxjs idea of the SK Dokdo class is the perfect fit for NZ for the JATF past 2035 it would necessitate an increase in manning levels for RNZN, but its something which is achievable with prior planning but it will also come at a cost impost for NZ. the bigger question here is NZ ready for real increase to the budget for NZ dfefence?

 

[ngatimozart]

Bit of a mistake, there. Albion & Bulwark are the same class, & both have docks. They're identical, AFAIK.

HMS Ocean doesn't have a dock.

My mistake and my apologies.

 

[CJR]

The Albion and Bulwork sales are as Swerve pointed out only rumour and speculation and as I mentioned above not something I would consider for the RNZN as they require larger crews than we would be able to realistically support.

TBH, I suspect if the poms did decide to reduce their amphib force further it'd be more likely one (or more?) of the Bay-class RFAs get the chop. The command faculties aboard Albion and Bulwark make 'em too valuable to just be given away.

Good news for you Kiwis though if that happens... A Bay class is much more in line with your available manpower than an Albion class.

 

[t68]

TBH, I suspect if the poms did decide to reduce their amphib force further it'd be more likely one (or more?) of the Bay-class RFAs get the chop. The command faculties aboard Albion and Bulwark make 'em too valuable to just be given away.

Good news for you Kiwis though if that happens... A Bay class is much more in line with your available manpower than an Albion class.

I bet there would also be more interest in it as well

 

[MrConservative]

I bet there would also be more interest in it as well

Possibly some but significantly more interest in OPV numbers - a day to day bread and butter patrolling job around our massive EEZ for the RNZN that is under-hulled at present and has a direct and present economic and political impact.

 

[Lucasnz]

With regards to the IPV going to the reserves that is no longer a viable option. The navy no longer directly recruits from the public personnel for in the seamanship or marine engineering trades. The only trade the navy recruits the public for is the Maritime Trade Organisation. While I believe it is not the best move in terms of maintaining a regional presence (esp down South) I am mindful that a couple of years ago VR personnel were able to meet standard for seamanship but they were short on the engineering side. There is greater use of ex regular personnel as reservists now. They can now transfer directly to the VR or serve on the active list of the Fleet Reserve.

In terms of the ex RN OPV I would support acquiring these and disposing of the three of the IPV. This would give the navy some breathing space to develop a integrated force structure that addresses the low / medium threat environment of the South Pacific that the NZDF will operate in and the future of the Naval Combat Force. The existing OPV can maintain the Ice Patrol in summer until a plan is formulated.

The core IPV role in my view should be transferred to customs who have been seeking a couple of 55m patrol craft for a number of years.

Time to bring the navy back to its core military role of Guns, Rum and a few missiles.

 

[Rob c]

TBH, I suspect if the poms did decide to reduce their amphib force further it'd be more likely one (or more?) of the Bay-class RFAs get the chop. The command faculties aboard Albion and Bulwark make 'em too valuable to just be given away.

Good news for you Kiwis though if that happens... A Bay class is much more in line with your available manpower than an Albion class.

While your logic is correct a bay class is a hell of a lot cheaper to run than an Albion and it will be the pollies and the bean counters who have the final say.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

The acquisition of multiple Batch 1 River class OPV's would be a fantastic move on the part of government. These could be hot transfered with no downtime. My only concern with them is they should receive upgrades in the form of a Siebel S100 camcopter RPAS supprted from a shipping container. I concur that this could allow a bridge to the next interation custom built for NZ operations in ten years time.

 

[Rob c]

The acquisition of multiple Batch 1 River class OPV's would be a fantastic move on the part of government. These could be hot transfered with no downtime. My only concern with them is they should receive upgrades in the form of a Siebel S100 camcopter RPAS supprted from a shipping container. I concur that this could allow a bridge to the next interation custom built for NZ operations in ten years time.

The only significant down side to such an acquisition of type one rivers is that the Greens would use it as an excuse to try and get rid of the frigates, a stated policy of theirs.

 

[MrConservative]

The only significant down side to such an acquisition of type one rivers is that the Greens would use it as an excuse to try and get rid of the frigates, a stated policy of theirs.

They may try and virtue signal that but they would fail Rob. They are not in any sort of position to dictate defence policy even within the current coalition and it is a moot point whether they will survive the next election in 2020 on just 6% and likely to get electoral slippage as incumbents that may place them under the 5% MMP threshold.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

It appears that HMS Clyde is a little bigger than her sisters. It has a flight deck large enough for a Merlin and troop carrying capacity for 110 for a short time. She also has a 30 mm cannon and is only 10 years old. Two are available and they would make welcome additions to the RNZN.

As to concerns about not replacing the ANZAC's do those here really think that this current government will have the legs to influence decisions twn years from now? I know this thia thread has been on the go for eleven years but i highky doubt this current government will last. The damage will be done the same as here in Canada under liberal rule. Its amazing to read the same issues that abound in our rsspective countries news media. Pot legalization. High home prices in urban centres. Increased minimum wage. Opposition to economic investment from NIMBYS. and little to no public interest in defence issues.

 

[MrConservative]

My only concern with them is they should receive upgrades in the form of a Siebel S100 camcopter RPAS supprted from a shipping container.

The South African Navy has trialled a shipboard 20TCU S-100 variant on the SAS Proteus but were denied funds for acquisition. Seibel quoted USD$4.8m for system.

It is on the RNZN radar as a possible option for shipboard ISR and referred to in the LOSC RFI a couple of years back.