Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[StingrayOZ]

I'm quite comfortable with 21 kts. The requirement for high speed intercept will be met by either the 11mtr RHIB or embarked air.
For 95% of their operations these ships will be patrolling at 12-14kts thereby enjoying fuel economies and comfortable sea riding.

We tend to forget that many of the OPV predecessors in the "patrol" function, including the Bathurst Class corvettes had operational speeds ranging from 9kts (Bass/Banks) to 24 kts and all were proven to be effective minor war vessels.

I don't think the speed is a deal breaker.

But the larger sea axe form offered, faster speed, lower drag in realistic conditions and therefore better range at a variety of speeds. Damen could have put in a very exciting offer based around the 1800 sea axe. Perhaps cost prevented them from doing that.

Interestingly, the South African Damen 1800 sea axe are expected to make 30kt.

21-24kt is fine IMO for an OPV. I would rather have a OPV with aviation capability and 21kt to speed, than a 30kt ship with no capability of embarked aviation.

Helicopters are proving essential to anti-piracy and enforcement zones such as the Persian gulf. Being able to support a boarding party with some sort of air will be essential (and a UAV can do this). If only for situational awareness reasons, even in non-combat situations. Of course in high threat situations being able to embark a manned helicopter again, changes the capability significantly.

It might be that the ADF and the RAN might consider a small number of corvettes (4-6) to replace some of the other smaller vessels. There would be a number of 25kt+ ships, that would be ideal, still around the 2000t region.

The 12 OPV's are then really free to be OPV's.

In such a context I would just be upgrading the 25mm bushmaster to the new 30mm bushmasters (RAN wide) with the coaxial .50 cal.

 

[hauritz]

I don't think we know for sure which ship Damen is offering.

I have seen their advertising featuring the OPV 950 but that doesn't necessarily mean that is what is being offered.

Damen has a good track record of winning shipbuilding contracts down under so I certainly wouldn't write them off.

 

[Hazdog]

I don't think we know for sure which ship Damen is offering.

I have seen their advertising featuring the OPV 950 but that doesn't necessarily mean that is what is being offered.

Damen has a good track record of winning shipbuilding contracts down under so I certainly wouldn't write them off.

It certainly could be a design of the OPV 1800 with a medium calibre gun and RWS mounted on the wings of the ship. Hopefully, they have realised that the other offers are currently lacking a hanger, so they pick up and include it in the proposed design.

Higher sprint speeds do allow for the chase of smaller trafficking vessels and higher speed mobile vessels, while not always necessary, nice to have.

 

[ASSAIL]

Higher sprint speeds do allow for the chase of smaller trafficking vessels and higher speed mobile vessels, while not always necessary, nice to have.

Nice to have at what cost? High speed diesels need to run on load. If run on light or no load they fail, they experience excessive wear and the service interval shortens to only a very few thousand hours.
To ensure there is minimum load single engine operation may be needed and efficiency declines.
Far better to rate the engines for purpose so they can be run as per specs and ensure longevity.
There's no point in carrying all that added cost and sustainment effort for under 5% utility.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Nice to have at what cost? High speed diesels need to run on load. If run on light or no load they fail, they experience excessive wear and the service interval shortens to only a very few thousand hours.
To ensure there is minimum load single engine operation may be needed and efficiency declines.
Far better to rate the engines for purpose so they can be run as per specs and ensure longevity.
There's no point in carrying all that added cost and sustainment effort for under 5% utility.

I don't imagine the RAN will be short of places where an OPV could stretch its legs. But I agree, that increasing cost for marginal use is something the ADF should avoid.

I would be rating endurance and range over speed.

Damen claims 5,000 NM @ 12 kt for the opv1800
Fassmer claim 12,000 NM @ 12kt for the opv80

Both 30 days endurance.

I would assume the Fassmer could probably keep range with something like an AWD at cruising 18kt. Where it would look like the Damen is a bit short legged.

This is all on paper, and we don't really know what each of the bids are. Not a whole lot of transparency on this one. I suspect we won't have long to wait to find out.

I hope fassmer put in a bid based off the Chiliean/Columbian OPV. They seem pretty capable. (and are fitted with a 40mm gun). Having recently done a sustained Antarctica mission, from Colombia. So its proven its got legs.

 

[alexsa]

I don't imagine the RAN will be short of places where an OPV could stretch its legs. But I agree, that increasing cost for marginal use is something the ADF should avoid.

I would be rating endurance and range over speed.

Damen claims 5,000 NM @ 12 kt for the opv1800
Fassmer claim 12,000 NM @ 12kt for the opv80

Both 30 days endurance.

I would assume the Fassmer could probably keep range with something like an AWD at cruising 18kt. Where it would look like the Damen is a bit short legged.

This is all on paper, and we don't really know what each of the bids are. Not a whole lot of transparency on this one. I suspect we won't have long to wait to find out.

I hope fassmer put in a bid based off the Chiliean/Columbian OPV. They seem pretty capable. (and are fitted with a 40mm gun). Having recently done a sustained Antarctica mission, from Colombia. So its proven its got legs.

Worth noting the range quoted is for the enlarged ship version of the OPV 1800 not the SeaAxe hull. The Sea Axe is supposed to be more efficient.

 

[Volkodav]

I'm quite comfortable with 21 kts. The requirement for high speed intercept will be met by either the 11mtr RHIB or embarked air.
For 95% of their operations these ships will be patrolling at 12-14kts thereby enjoying fuel economies and comfortable sea riding.

We tend to forget that many of the OPV predecessors in the "patrol" function, including the Bathurst Class corvettes had operational speeds ranging from 9kts (Bass/Banks) to 24 kts and all were proven to be effective minor war vessels.

Yep and its not the maximum speed that counts but the speed the ship can maintain when the sea state picks up. These larger, more durable and seaworthy will quite likely operate at higher average speeds than the Armidales, as well as being able to operate in conditions that would have caused the smaller PBs serious issues.

 

[40 deg south]

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/imps-news/frigates-and-opvs-parade-three-three-australia/

On the last day of the expo, the three frigate contenders presented their designs at a conference session: the BAE Systems Type 26 Global Combat Ship, Fincantieri FREMM-A and Navantia F-5000. The former employed a chief engineer to highlight design features of the Type 26, while Fincantieri rolled in a couple of Italian Navy officers. Navantia took a multimedia approach to emphasise local industrial involvement and its ‘low-risk choice’ status.

Interesting report from Gordon Arthur of Shephard Media. Currently un-gated, but that may not last.

 

[hauritz]

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/imps-news/frigates-and-opvs-parade-three-three-australia/



Interesting report from Gordon Arthur of Shephard Media. Currently un-gated, but that may not last.

There are a couple of things in that report that doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

He claims that the F-5000 only has a single hanger and there is some confusion with the Damen OPV950 and OPV1800 Sea Axe designs.

 

[alexsa]

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/imps-news/frigates-and-opvs-parade-three-three-australia/



Interesting report from Gordon Arthur of Shephard Media. Currently un-gated, but that may not last.

Interesting that the Damen OPV options was stated to be based on the SeaAxe 1800 (mind you the journalist did point to a picture of a 950).

The other interesting thing is the reference to a single hanger on the F-5000 when Navantia have consistently stated a twin helo capability. The model may not be up to date or it is a longtitudinal arrangement like the T26. (Not sure there is the space behind the after funnel but it is hard to guess).

 

[Muar River]

Damen's 1800 Sea Axe OPV is the ship design submitted according to Australian Warship Magazine. Even in this magazine, another Damen Sea Axe design photo has been used which probably is part of the reason for uncertainty.

 

[Raven22]

The other interesting thing is the reference to a single hanger on the F-5000 when Navantia have consistently stated a twin helo capability. The model may not be up to date or it is a longtitudinal arrangement like the T26. (Not sure there is the space behind the after funnel but it is hard to guess).

Ive see a few different diagrams of how the F100 could be modified to have dual hangers, at least one of which only had the one hangar door. I imagine that design is the one that has been chosen if the models only show one hangar door.

 

[StevoJH]

From the graphic it appears that the hanger attaches to the multi mission bay so the first helo would have to pass through the hanger before the second one was put in.

The LM2500s are for propulsion in the AWD and I expect it will be the same in the F-5000. There is certainly scope to fit updated generators and it would be hoped this was done.

Which would limit the utility of the second Helo since unless there is enough room for them to pass side by side somewhere inside the ship, one would need to be airborne before you could ready the second. Which could be interesting if the 'outboard' Helo is unservicable.

 

[zhaktronz]

Which would limit the utility of the second Helo since unless there is enough room for them to pass side by side somewhere inside the ship, one would need to be airborne before you could ready the second. Which could be interesting if the 'outboard' Helo is unservicable.

There should be enough room on the deck to juggle the helicopters - but it's certainly a handling obstacle.

 

[Blas de Lezo]

The f5000 model seems to have one hangar door but some of the infographs show clearly two.

NAVANTIA shortlisted for the design of the Australian future frigate - Navantia


Click on the picture to get it bigger.




Regards.

 

[alexsa]

The f5000 model seems to have one hangar door but some of the infographs show clearly two.

NAVANTIA shortlisted for the design of the Australian future frigate - Navantia


Click on the picture to get it bigger.




Regards.

Yep, a number of renderings have two but the model has been around for quite some time. As I said it may be out of date.

As for handling issues, yes it there is a single door it is more complex ......... but the T26 only has a single door so that will apply to it too.

 

[hauritz]

Yep, a number of renderings have two but the model has been around for quite some time. As I said it may be out of date.

As for handling issues, yes it there is a single door it is more complex ......... but the T26 only has a single door so that will apply to it too.

I have seen what looks like a similar set up on the proposed f-110. They might be looking at the same hanger/mission bay arrangement for the f-5000.
Spain Awarded the First Development Contract for the Future Spanish Navy F-110 Frigates

In this case the hanger doubles as a multi-mission space.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Yep, a number of renderings have two but the model has been around for quite some time. As I said it may be out of date.

As for handling issues, yes it there is a single door it is more complex ......... but the T26 only has a single door so that will apply to it too.

I don't think anyone was spending big on models (except for the Type 26, which is massive and seems to be an Australian one) at pacific 2017.

Most of the other models seem to be modified older ones which show how the radar is fitted.

Damen's model for example doesn't appear to bare any resemblance to what their tender is. Different ship, size, configuration.

Its not like the shape of the F-5000 isn't familiar. I would imagine both Payne and Pyne could probably sail the dam thing given how many times they have had tours or been on it. The model isn't really going to explain the inner workings of the hangar.

Why do the F-105 ships have the harpoon launchers facing each other? Wouldn't it be better to have them facing outwards?

 

[oldsig127]

Why do the F-105 ships have the harpoon launchers facing each other? Wouldn't it be better to have them facing outwards?

Subject to my dodgy memory, they much more often face cross deck rather than outboard. See the Ticos, ARleigh Burkes, ANZACs etc.

oldsig

 

[Raven22]

Why do the F-105 ships have the harpoon launchers facing each other? Wouldn't it be better to have them facing outwards?

If the launchers face in, it means the blast goes out. Better than the back blast going inboard and scorching everything.