Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[StevoJH]

I wouldn't be surprised if politics played a role and that might favour type 26. Britain has indicated that they want to operate in this region and perhaps even have their ships maintained out here. I am not saying that a British deployment is tied to the Australia purchasing the type 26 but certainly the political pressure is on.

Not just that, but also talks of trade agreements post Brexit as well.

Once you add in possible economic benefits, Type 26 could possibly have an advantage over both other options even if one or the other might be a marginally better fit to the specifications.

 

[StingrayOZ]

I think there really is a competition on, but the F-5000 is the benchmark to beat.

The Type 26 is a bigger ship, has a lot more modern features and flexible space. But its not a destroyer. While it called a global combat ship, it is clearly prioritized for operations beyond high level intensity combat. But is it ready? If anything, Australia wants to accelerate all the programs.

But looking at the strategic situation what does Australia want and need. Clearly going with an Aegis based combat system indicates that we are looking at a very serious ship. If we are sailing into a hot conflict zone around north korea facing peer level opposition, that is very different to a benign pacific environment.

The fact we are building a huge number of OPV's that can legitimately and more effectively take over those roles I think frees up the future "frigates" to focus on high end capability.

Certainly two projects you want to get right. Between sea5000 and sea1180 that's over 20 ships, and the bulk of Australia's ability to project power.

Given the way current projects are going and the regional threats, I would tend to suspect the government is more interested in a higher end solution.

All the images of marise payne walking past corvettes makes me wonder if ASPI is right, maybe between sea1180 and sea5000 we might see a project to acquire a small number of corvettes as a follow on for sea5000.

 

[hauritz]

All the images of marise payne walking past corvettes makes me wonder if ASPI is right, maybe between sea1180 and sea5000 we might see a project to acquire a small number of corvettes as a follow on for sea5000.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Australia eventually looked at proper corvettes as a follow-on project for SEA1180 in the 2030s.

Just about every other navy in the world including the USN is opting to build second tier warships so it wouldn't surprise me to see Australia follow suit.

The Mine Hunting fleet will be replaced in the 2030s but given the changing nature of mine warfare they might just opt for corvettes equipped with ROVs instead.

 

[StingrayOZ]

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Australia eventually looked at proper corvettes as a follow-on project for SEA1180 in the 2030s.

Just about every other navy in the world including the USN is opting to build second tier warships so it wouldn't surprise me to see Australia follow suit.

The Mine Hunting fleet will be replaced in the 2030s but given the changing nature of mine warfare they might just opt for corvettes equipped with ROVs instead.

It wouldn't surprise me. It would give a lot more options. 4-6 corvettes (replacing the 6 huons) with some self defense and perhaps ASW capabilities I think would be suitable and affordable. I suspect that in looking ASW for the future frigates they have seen how the future is quite different from the past.

They would also be great platforms for training with other navies and could perform anti-piracy, border protection etc in higher threat environments. Those would be key abilities for the region and for allies globally.

Ships in the ~2,500t range are very capable. They would have a significantly different role to the OPV's and to the future frigates.

 

[pussertas]

Sustaining the Capability Superiority of Collins

(Source: Australian Department of Defence; issued Oct 04, 2017)
Minister for Defence, Senator the Hon Marise Payne, and Minister for Defence Industry, the Hon Christopher Pyne MP, announced today two projects to sustain the capability superiority of the Collins submarine fleet until its replacement by the future submarine.

“The 2016 Defence White Paper makes it clear submarines are an essential part of Australia’s defence strategy and a powerful instrument for deterring conflict and contributing to anti-submarine warfare in our region,” Minister Payne said.

“The Government is committed to continuing appropriate investments in the Collins class, including priority capability enhancements, obsolescence management and fleet sustainment.

“This will ensure Australia maintains a potent and agile submarine capability until the introduction of the future submarine fleet.”

The first project addresses obsolescence in the control system to allow safe operation of the submarines, while the second provides improved submarine communications capability.

Minister Pyne said the involvement of Australian defence industry, as part of Australia’s submarine enterprise, is fundamental to our ability to manage and sustain a multi-class submarine fleet.

“On average, 120 people per year across New South Wales, South Australia and Western Australia will be employed over the life of the program,” Minister Pyne said.

“Combined the projects will inject approximately $540 million into the Australian economy over the next 20 years, with $300 million going into South Australia, $65 million to New South Wales, and $175 million to Western Australia.”

While ASC will manage the integration of the updated systems, Defence has engaged SAAB Australia to update the control system.

The expertise and experience of Raytheon Australia, in the role of Collins Combat Systems Integrator, will be leveraged to coordinate the communications upgrade.

The Turnbull Government is also pleased to advise that the Collins Class Submarines project (CN 10) has been officially removed from the Projects of Concern list. This project was added to the list in November 2008, but given the extraordinary effort that has been put into rectifying the issues associated with the Collins Class project, and given that submarine availability is now meeting international benchmarks, the Government is confident that the project can be removed from the list.

:jump

 

[pussertas]

$148 Million Radar Upgrade for Anzac Class

(Source: Australian Department of Defence; issued Oct 04, 2017)
Minister for Defence Industry, the Hon Christopher Pyne MP, today congratulated world leading Australian company CEA Technologies for winning a contract to upgrade the capabilities of the Royal Australian Navy’s Anzac class frigates.

Minister Pyne visited CEA Technologies today at PACIFIC 2017 and said the contract valued at $148 million would see the production of new air search radar, known as the CEAFAR2-L, for the Anzac class frigates. The contract is part of the larger program that will modify the ships and integrate the radars that has a total value of over $400 million.

“The air search radar upgrade will ensure Defence is able to adapt to modern and evolving air and missile threats and maintain a capability edge for the life of the Anzac class," Minister Pyne said.

“The radar has been developed by CEA Technologies here in Canberra, a company that employs almost 400 staff, whose technology is leading the world and being adopted by armed forces across the globe.

“The air search radar represents a leading-edge technology innovation and reflects a positive and effective ongoing collaboration between Defence and CEA Technologies over the last 15 years.

“CEA Technologies will build on the technology developed for the Anzac class frigates to develop the next-generation of air search radars for the future frigates.

"In addition to CEA, wider Australian industry will play a vital role in installing and sustaining the air search radar, particularly in providing local employment opportunities in Fremantle, Western Australia, with flow on benefits for the local economy,” he said.

CEA Technologies is an internationally recognised Australian company, and previously built the medium range Anti-Ship Missile Defence radar currently defending the Anzac class.

:jump

 

[pussertas]

GE LM2500 Marine Gas Turbine Family Ideal for Australia’s SEA 5000 Frigate Program

(Source: GE Aviation; issued Oct 03, 2017)
SYDNEY, Australia --- GE’s marine gas turbines are the ideal solution for the Royal Australian Navy’s (RAN) SEA 5000 next generation Future Frigate Program, GE reported today at the PACIFIC 2017 trade exhibition.

“GE has a longstanding partnership with the RAN, providing LM2500 gas turbines that power 100% of the RAN’s gas turbine fleet,” said Brien Bolsinger, GE’s Vice President, General Manager, Marine Operations, Evendale, Ohio. “Our worldwide fleet of gas turbines boasts greater than 99% reliability, with over 15 million hours operating in marine applications and another 70 million in industrial settings. We also back our marine gas turbines with dedicated in-country engine support capabilities to ensure the RAN optimum fleet readiness and lower total cost of ownership. This makes our LM2500 engine family the low risk solution for the RAN’s nine-ship SEA 5000 program,” he added.

SEA 5000 will replace the aging Anzac class frigates. GE’s LM2500 family of engines are operational on two of the RAN’s short-listed ship designs -- Fincantieri’s FREMM (LM2500+G4) and Navantia’s F100 (LM2500). Both GE gas turbines provide the benefits of commonality and interoperability, not only within the existing RAN fleet, but also with the vast majority of international navy fleets powered by LM2500 engines.

According to Bolsinger, “The adoption of a common propulsion system can obviously generate enormous maintenance cost savings for the ship over its life, leveraging the existing infrastructure, crew training, and a single pool of spares. This provides the flexibility to move propulsion crew between all classes of RAN ships with no new training. Plus, interoperability means immediate help is available when deployed since the RAN and 34 other navies worldwide rely on our LM2500 marine engines for ship power.”
Savings extend to support functions. An example is the RAN and GE collaboration to re-task retired LM2500 engines as training aids for ships’ crews. With the LM2500 gas turbine solution chosen for SEA 5000, these training assets will be directly applicable, thus eliminating the need to procure expensive, new training aids.

The LM2500 family of engines sets the benchmark for reliability. Several other recent surface combatant programs from the world’s leading navies that use or will employ LM2500 family marine gas turbines include the Italian Navy’s new Pattugliatori Polivalenti d’Altura multipurpose offshore patrol ships; the Japan Maritime Self Defense Force’s new 8,200-ton class Aegis destroyer; and the German Navy’s new F125 Baden-Wurttemberg-class frigates.

:jump

 

[ASSAIL]

Pussertas why are you angry over these three announcements?
First, the Collins life extension is logical and doable. These boats did very little for the first 15 years or so of their lives meaning there are many dive cycles still left in their pressure hulls. The system upgrades simply keep their control, sensor and weapons outfits current. They have proven to be a benchmark performer and will continue to be so.
Second, the SPS 48 replacement has been in the IIP and has been planned for ever since the decision to upgrade the ships was made. This radar has been around for over 40 years.
And third, the LM 2500 gas turbines are a reliable known quantity and have been continually upgraded. They are the only turbines fitted in RAN ships, have a competent sustainment organisation behind them and are the logical fit for SEA 5000. Why change to Rolls Royce?

 

[SteveR]

Pussertas why are you angry over these three announcements?
GE LM2500 turbines are a reliable known quantity and have been continually upgraded. They are the only turbines fitted in RAN ships, have a competent sustainment organisation behind them and are the logical fit for SEA 5000. Why change to Rolls Royce?

However note that the USN chose Roll Royce MT30s for their Zumwalts, and have them in their Lockheed LCSs. The Italians who have been making LM2500s under license for decades have recently selected MT30s for their new LHD.

 

[SteveR]

Lurssen's model is actually the Republic of Singapore Navy's Victory class corvette.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLMfLerVwAAZqb4.jpg

See RSN Victory class:
http://www.seaforces.org/marint/Singapore-Navy/Corvette/90-RSS-Vigilance-photo-002.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7351/8836525410_3d1e029940_b.jpg

Interesting that both Damen (see StingrayOZ item preceding Joe Black) and Lurssen are displaying unexpected vessels (not OPVs) at Pacific 2017 - no Sea Axe on Damen model? Perhaps they know Austal/Fassmer SEA 1180 has won and are just showing something else of possible regional interest?

 

[hairyman]

I imagine that the British ship would be the one with the Rolls Royce engines. With the quietness that the British are claiming for anti-submarine work, surely you are not suggesting that they change to GE?

 

[Muar River]

A link to an article about the US Navy's FFG(X) programme with very interesting comments from Adm Richardson and Rear Adm Boxsall about networking and commonalities. Mention of the possibility of AEGIS being fitted to US Navy frigates for the first time and also other commonalities including engineering plants.

https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2017/07/28/experts-question-the-navys-ideas-for-a-new-frigate/

I thought the paper is relevant with AEGIS being selected for our new frigates and now some discussion on the GTs.

 

[Joe Black]

A link to an article about the US Navy's FFG(X) programme with very interesting comments from Adm Richardson and Rear Adm Boxsall about networking and commonalities. Mention of the possibility of AEGIS being fitted to US Navy frigates for the first time and also other commonalities including engineering plants.

https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2017/07/28/experts-question-the-navys-ideas-for-a-new-frigate/

I thought the paper is relevant with AEGIS being selected for our new frigates and now some discussion on the GTs.

I thought the mandated CMS was CombatSS-21 which is a cut down version of the AEGIS CMS? Have they changed their mind to go full blown AEGIS now?

Strangely enough, the Independent class LCS have the Thales made TACTICO CMS.

 

[StingrayOZ]

The LM2500 is a very proven unit. The unit is widely used in military, aviation and other applications (power). But its come to the end of its development.

The MT30 is a much newer unit and a lot more powerful. It is likely to become more popular and replace (indirectly) the LM2500 in many applications (such as military and aviation in new ships and new planes). It is likely to be continued to be developed.

Running two lm2500 in the AWD will be more expensive than running one MT30 in the Type 26 for example. That being said, going to a single GT has some drawback (redundancy!).

These are factors to be considered. But I don't see then as critical. The AWD's already have LM2500's so we will be stuck with them for ages. Throwing a MT30 to support ontop of that doesn't really make things easier.

Going with F-5000 means we will most likely roll many of the updates (such as the Aegis and saab combat system) onto the AWD's. I would imagine other things like the propulsion are also likely upgrades.

Its very interesting if you go back into this thread, to 2010, and read some of abes comments regarding sea5000 (~page 294)

"Also there has been some discussion in the Navy/CDG about using SEA 5000 to build more AEGIS capable ships so the fleet can achieve the right balance. The AEGIS command and decision suite (the computers here, not the SPY-1 radars) is far more capable than the 9LV Mk 4 combat system and would make the best core for the SEA 5000. If you could build such a ship: new hull, electric propulsion, AEGIS C&D, force level ASW system, mission deck and CEA radars then you would have an excellent capability with a very good growth path for future capability."

I think this is a legitimate fight between F-5000 and Type 26 with FREMM keeping them honest. Then end result should be very capable.

 

[ASSAIL]

I imagine that the British ship would be the one with the Rolls Royce engines. With the quietness that the British are claiming for anti-submarine work, surely you are not suggesting that they change to GE?

The noise factor is irrelevant all GTs make noise. It's how that noise iscompensated for in the design which matters and the T26 does that well, apparently.
Warships are twin screw for a reason, redundancy. In days gone by most were twin screw but with modern propulsion systems it's what delivers the power to shafts or electric motors that matters. The T26 has a single, powerful GT so, as Stingray Oz states, redundancy is a factor to be considered. The woeful early problems with the T45s bear this out.

My comments re LM 2500 were assuming that the T26 doesn't make the cut. If it does the RAN will,once again be doubling up on sustainment issues and complicating training and manning when there's no need to as the difference in capability between all three ships is minimal.

 

[Blas de Lezo]

I have not seen it posted in here, my appologies if I missed it.
I think is relevant to the current discussion.
GE signs MoU with RJE Global for Australian Navy turbine assembly | Naval Today

Regards

 

[pussertas]

SEA5000 BAE to transfer bespoke technologies

(Source: BAE Systems; issued Oct 04, 2017)

More than 30 global companies with contracts to supply critical major parts for the Type 26 Global Combat Ship being manufactured in the UK, will transfer bespoke technologies and capability to Australia, should BAE Systems’ bid for SEA5000 be successful.
BAE Systems has proposed an Australian version of the Global Combat Ship to replace the aging ANZAC class frigates.

As well as the many thousands of jobs that the Future Frigates project will generate, the transfer of technology by these 30 companies and the advanced manufacturing they will undertake will create hundreds of jobs.

The companies will produce, assemble and test equipment in Australia. They will develop advanced manufacturing hubs in propulsion and combat systems technology, establishing new, highly skilled jobs in these specialised sectors during the building of the Future Frigates and in the many decades of sustaining the ships during their service life.

Together with the skills, knowledge and engineering capability that will be transferred by BAE Systems, the technology transfer will not only underpin the building and sustainment of the Future Frigates, it will also enable Australia to lead the design and build its next generation of warships for the Royal Australian Navy.

BAE Systems expects that within ten years, the shipbuilding capability developed in Adelaide will be autonomous and competing for export sales.

BAE Systems Chief Executive Glynn Phillips said:

“The transfer of intellectual property and technology is key to establishing and maintaining an enduring Australian shipbuilding capability.

“Our approach is to create an economic powerhouse of advanced manufacturing.

“Our investment in industrial capability will see highly skilled Australians playing a lead role in the design and building of the next generation warship well beyond the immediate Future Frigate program.”

:jump2

 

[pussertas]

Pussertas why are you angry over these three announcements?

Not at all angry over these Ministerial announcements.

My intention was to merely highlight announcement that confirmed the Governments intentions.

:jump

 

[ASSAIL]

:jump:jump2:jump2:jump

Pussertas why are you angry over these three announcements?

Not at all angry over these Ministerial announcements.

My intention was to merely highlight announcement that confirmed the Governments intentions.

Cheers for that, my interpretation of that jump was that it was a pi$$ed off jump. Not sure what the red one represents, I had better smarten up my emoji protocol

 

[alexsa]

VLS on T26

I notice the T26 model at DSEI 2013 has VLS (Seaceptor I think) aft of the funnel structure. I cannot see from the images from Pacific 17 if there were any VLS in this location on the model displayed


DSEI 2013 Highlights – The Type 26 Global Combat Ship - Think Defence


Certainly there were 24 small VLS in the 2013 images. If this space was used it could increase the load out for ESSM but it would appear these would not be strike length. If they were tactical length they could also be used for SM2.


If someone has better images of the model that would be helpful