Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[StingrayOZ]

The Future Frigates 5000 are to be equipped with a L-band CEAFAR2 which will have a range much further out than the current S-band CEAFAR1. Theoretically, this will make the Future Frigates even better than the AWDs in some aspect of the air-defence capability. However, with AEGIS Baseline 9 and some minor upgrades to the SPY-1D radars, the AWDs can be transformed into ballistic missiles defence assets, which the Future Frigates with CEAFAR S/L/X possible couldn't in the mean time.

While I agree, I wouldn't write off future frigate BMD capability just yet, I've heard even that is able to be accommodated, even if it isn't yet a CEAFAR strong point.
For BMD it is unlikely it will be dependant on a single ships radar anyway. I think this is very much watch this space. I believe BMD is driving the incorporation of Aegis into the Future frigates.

I’m not so sure this is an AEGIS/9LV mash-up. Both AEGIS and 9LV are combat systems, as I understand them?

I wouldn't be too worried. An aegis heart and 9lv front end is going to be a pretty tidy combo. I wouldn't be surprised if this combination becomes very appealing for other western navies. Eventually, it will replace the current setup in the AWD's.

I absolutely see this as a positive. The RAN with 12 aegis multi-role destroyers. Its going to be pretty hard to claim otherwise and will put more pressure on a stronger VLS load out IMO over other non-combat capabilities (which can be pushed onto the OPV).

But it also shows how serious regional threats are becoming. They aren't doing this to save money or limit capability.

 

[StevoJH]

This would give the RAN the second or third largest fleet of Aegis combatants. Depending of course on the CMS the Japanese run on their surface combatants.

 

[thatsamguy]

Models of the three SEA5000 contenders were on display at Pacfic 2017.

See @MarisePayne twitter account for image (too new to post them directly)

All three show an indicative 2x quad canister launch harpoons.

 

[John Fedup]

Putting aside a joint AEGIS/CEAFAR product, the Government has been promoting CEAFAR to the Canadians for their Frigate/Destroyer program.

Given the Thales Sanmina relationship along with investments by the Canadian government, I assume the Thales APAR Blk 2 system is the likely choice for the CSC.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Models of the three SEA5000 contenders were on display at Pacfic 2017.

See @MarisePayne twitter account for image (too new to post them directly)

All three show an indicative 2x quad canister launch harpoons.

They also have at least three sea1180 contenders.
The Damen one appears to have a hanger, harpoon launchers, but looks like a sigma.

 

[Joe Black]

They also have at least three sea1180 contenders.
The Damen one appears to have a hanger, harpoon launchers, but looks like a sigma.

Lurssen's model is actually the Republic of Singapore Navy's Victory class corvette.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLMfLerVwAAZqb4.jpg

See RSN Victory class:
http://www.seaforces.org/marint/Singapore-Navy/Corvette/90-RSS-Vigilance-photo-002.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7351/8836525410_3d1e029940_b.jpg

 

[Joe Black]

BAE Global Combat Ship Australia's model on BAE Australia FB page:

https://www.facebook.com/BAESystemsAustralia/videos/1690470250994165/

 

[hauritz]

They also have at least three sea1180 contenders.
The Damen one appears to have a hanger, harpoon launchers, but looks like a sigma.

It must be getting close to announcing the winner of SEA1180. They are due to start construction next year,

 

[spoz]

Lurssen's model is actually the Republic of Singapore Navy's Victory class corvette.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLMfLerVwAAZqb4.jpg

See RSN Victory class:
http://www.seaforces.org/marint/Singapore-Navy/Corvette/90-RSS-Vigilance-photo-002.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7351/8836525410_3d1e029940_b.jpg

And the Damen model is the Sigma frigate/corvette - the Indonesian version I think.

 

[DaveS124]

Just by way of a public service announcement, please note that anyone following this news on Twitter should bear in mind that a nonstop troll calling himself @Persil is just Eric L Palmer.

He got blocked by so many other Tweeps using his name that he recommissioned his long dormant laundry moniker.

Disregard anything by @Persil as you would anything by Palmer using his actual name.

 

[StingrayOZ]

It must be getting close to announcing the winner of SEA1180. They are due to start construction next year,

I expect some big announcements when Holden closes next month. Lot of news for Adelaide and Perth. The government will be keen to put tangible projects on the table for these two cities to look forward to. There is a real genuine concern regarding Australia's security. Which is why no one is coming out criticizing spending another $3billion to upgrade the "frigates" to aegis.

I'm tipping F-5000 for Sea5000 and Damen 1800 SeaAxe (with a bloody hanger) for 1180.

Both of which I think would be ideal for the RAN and will be very complimentary (but two very, very different ships). I hope the aegis announcement clarifies that the sea5000 is about high end capability and not just another lightly armed swollen frigate.

This clarifies the sea1180 as a proper offshore patrol boat, taking on long range blue water patrols around the region, and able to take on patrol duties that the Anzacs currently do, when required. It will need to have decent sea keeping, range, speed and be able to organically support an embarked helicopter or multiple UAVs. Flex space, embarked forces, policing and enforcement duties. Operating in the far pacific, or in the Persian Gulf or in South East Asia.

Announcing these I think will really clear the air about the direction of the RAN and the ADF.

 

[ADMk2]

Just by way of a public service announcement, please note that anyone following this news on Twitter should bear in mind that a nonstop troll calling himself @Persil is just Eric L Palmer.

He got blocked by so many other Tweeps using his name that he recommissioned his long dormant laundry moniker.

Disregard anything by @Persil as you would anything by Palmer using his actual name.

Does that guy even comment on defence stuff any more since he and his APA puppet masters, got so thoroughly humiliated by the Australian Senate no less?

I heard he shut his blog down, but I guess he has decided to just troll on twitter eh? Fair enough, good to see he is moving forward and providing a more worthy contribution to defence debate (as a mouth-breathing twitter troll) than he did previously...

 

[zhaktronz]

Looks like 32 VLS on the FREMM derivative model (4x8 cells)

Same for the Type 26 derivative.

 

[John Newman]

Some more images of the SEA 5000 contenders from Pacific 2017.

See the 'navy recognition' link below:

https://www.navyrecognition.com/ind...d-with-aegis-combat-system-and-cea-radar.html

All three models are shown with CEAFAR installed.

In regard to the number of VLS installed, firstly FREMM, you can see clearly from the photo that there are four pods of 4 x 2, totalling 32 VLS, in the space between the front of the superstructure and the main gun.

With what appears to the limited space available, it looks like 32 is all that can be fitted in that position (unless there is other space somewhere else on the superstructure).

As for Type 26, there are four rows of eight (4 x 8) for a total of 32 VLS in the housing in front of the superstructure.

Could another two rows of eight be installed to get to 48? Who knows, depends what is under that housing.

Whilst there is not a 'front on' shot of the Navantia F5000 model, Navantia has clearly said that their offering will have a 48 cell VLS, which based on these models is 16 more than the other two contenders.

Interestingly the Navantia model has been photographed from the rear, showing the helicopter deck and hangar, and more interestingly it is showing only one hangar door (but Navantia has stated, and published in writing too, that the F5000 will have two hangars).

Bit of caution obviously as to final configuration, these are only models that may or may not show what is really being offered by the three contenders.

 

[ngatimozart]

Some more images of the SEA 5000 contenders from Pacific 2017.

See the 'navy recognition' link below:

https://www.navyrecognition.com/ind...d-with-aegis-combat-system-and-cea-radar.html

All three models are shown with CEAFAR installed.

In regard to the number of VLS installed, firstly FREMM, you can see clearly from the photo that there are four pods of 4 x 2, totalling 32 VLS, in the space between the front of the superstructure and the main gun.

With what appears to the limited space available, it looks like 32 is all that can be fitted in that position (unless there is other space somewhere else on the superstructure).

As for Type 26, there are four rows of eight (4 x 8) for a total of 32 VLS in the housing in front of the superstructure.

Could another two rows of eight be installed to get to 48? Who knows, depends what is under that housing.

Whilst there is not a 'front on' shot of the Navantia F5000 model, Navantia has clearly said that their offering will have a 48 cell VLS, which based on these models is 16 more than the other two contenders.

Interestingly the Navantia model has been photographed from the rear, showing the helicopter deck and hangar, and more interestingly it is showing only one hangar door (but Navantia has stated, and published in writing too, that the F5000 will have two hangars).

Bit of caution obviously as to final configuration, these are only models that may or may not show what is really being offered by the three contenders.

John, in the Italian built FREMM there is a provision for further VLS in the superstructure aft of the bridge and mast. IIRC in the Italian Navy they allow for 8 Sylver cells in the aft VLS and it replaces the accommodation for extra personnel.

 

[Muar River]

All these changes come at a cost both in space, money and increased risk to the project, The question I ask is if these changes are implemented on the FREMM and BAE offerings, do they provide for a better ship than an evolved Hobart?

 

[Stampede]

I expect some big announcements when Holden closes next month. Lot of news for Adelaide and Perth. The government will be keen to put tangible projects on the table for these two cities to look forward to. There is a real genuine concern regarding Australia's security. Which is why no one is coming out criticizing spending another $3billion to upgrade the "frigates" to aegis.

I'm tipping F-5000 for Sea5000 and Damen 1800 SeaAxe (with a bloody hanger) for 1180.

Both of which I think would be ideal for the RAN and will be very complimentary (but two very, very different ships). I hope the aegis announcement clarifies that the sea5000 is about high end capability and not just another lightly armed swollen frigate.

This clarifies the sea1180 as a proper offshore patrol boat, taking on long range blue water patrols around the region, and able to take on patrol duties that the Anzacs currently do, when required. It will need to have decent sea keeping, range, speed and be able to organically support an embarked helicopter or multiple UAVs. Flex space, embarked forces, policing and enforcement duties. Operating in the far pacific, or in the Persian Gulf or in South East Asia.

Announcing these I think will really clear the air about the direction of the RAN and the ADF.

Thanks StingrayOZ

None of us know the result of the respective projects but your reinforcement of what a OPV really needs is most valid.
We don't need something a bit bigger than the previous generations of patrol boats but a quantum leap in capability reflected in the size and design of the winning OPV's.
I can only hope that the successful design does true justice to the operative needs far from home for protracted periods of time with commensurate systems to carry out the many varieties of tasks that the Commonwealth will demand.

The answer is probably not too many months away.

Regards S

PS- Agree a flight deck and bloody hangar is a must.

 

[Hazdog]

Some more images of the SEA 5000 contenders from Pacific 2017.

See the 'navy recognition' link below:

https://www.navyrecognition.com/ind...d-with-aegis-combat-system-and-cea-radar.html

All three models are shown with CEAFAR installed.

In regard to the number of VLS installed, firstly FREMM, you can see clearly from the photo that there are four pods of 4 x 2, totalling 32 VLS, in the space between the front of the superstructure and the main gun.

With what appears to the limited space available, it looks like 32 is all that can be fitted in that position (unless there is other space somewhere else on the superstructure).

As for Type 26, there are four rows of eight (4 x 8) for a total of 32 VLS in the housing in front of the superstructure.

Could another two rows of eight be installed to get to 48? Who knows, depends what is under that housing.

Whilst there is not a 'front on' shot of the Navantia F5000 model, Navantia has clearly said that their offering will have a 48 cell VLS, which based on these models is 16 more than the other two contenders.

Interestingly the Navantia model has been photographed from the rear, showing the helicopter deck and hangar, and more interestingly it is showing only one hangar door (but Navantia has stated, and published in writing too, that the F5000 will have two hangars).

Bit of caution obviously as to final configuration, these are only models that may or may not show what is really being offered by the three contenders.

Also, the shown F-5000 design does not show a bow thruster that current AWD does... this may confirm your suspicion that the shown designs are not the final offerings.

I do hope that the F-5000 design has been offered in both 64 and 48 VLS configurations. (*Fingers crossed. 64 VLS is selected)

Past F-5000 designs do show two hangers at the rear, would it be too much to ask that the Phalanx be replaced with SeaRam?

 

[John Newman]

All these changes come at a cost both in space, money and increased risk to the project, The question I ask is if these changes are implemented on the FREMM and BAE offerings, do they provide for a better ship than an evolved Hobart?

But there is no 'out of the box' solution from all three contenders, they all have to make modifications from their base designs, how is it any different from one contender to the other?

All three base designs have to include CEAFAR (for example), all have to meet whatever the requirements of the RFT are, yes some base designs may require more changes than the other to meet the RFT, but at the end of the day, isn't that up to each of the three contenders to come up with a solution and then present that solution to the Government?

And then of course it is up to each of the three contenders to put a price on the product they are delivering to meet the RFT, and it's up to Defence and Government to assess the product that each is delivering and then select the one that ticks whatever boxes they want ticked.

The problem for all of us armchair Admirals, is that we are trying to compare apples with apples, but we don't really know what sort of apple we are trying to compare the three other apples with.

The missile system for example, Navantia has publically said that their F5000 will have the same 48 cell Mk41 VLS system as the AWD, it appears (on the surface) that the others may be offering 32 cells (and neither have said that publically, that is just a 'guesstimate' from looking at base designs or models, etc).

But we don't know what the RFT has specified, it may set a minimum, it might set a desired or a maximum, we just don't know.

Anyway, we all just have to wait and see.

 

[hauritz]

All these changes come at a cost both in space, money and increased risk to the project, The question I ask is if these changes are implemented on the FREMM and BAE offerings, do they provide for a better ship than an evolved Hobart?

All three contenders will be offered with pretty much the same sensors and weapons.

In terms of hull and machinery, you would expect the later designs to be superior but whether or not this would outweigh the benefits of simply continuing the Hobart production line remains to be seen.

I wouldn't be surprised if politics played a role and that might favour type 26. Britain has indicated that they want to operate in this region and perhaps even have their ships maintained out here. I am not saying that a British deployment is tied to the Australia purchasing the type 26 but certainly the political pressure is on.

When it comes to weighing up the benefits of a proven product like the Hobart class against the benefits of several aircraft carriers and frigates being based out of Perth it certainly levels the playing field a little.

https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/wa-to-benefit-as-uk-lifts-military-presence-ng-b88545837z