Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) News and Discussions
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John Fedup
The Bunker Group
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- #622
Well the dispute ruling has been announced, Bombardier C-Series jets that have lower seat capacity than the smallest 737 now face a 219% duty until final decision. The good news is the RCAF no longer has to worry about a pathetic SH interim purchase and the Airbus MRTT will get the nod for our next tanker. Unfortunately the P-8 will now never happen.
Boeing has managed to make a martyr out of one of Canada's worst run corporations. Given all their problems with rail transport products and now this, they could fail (Boeing's plan of course). This outcome could produce an anti-American backlash even though Bombardier, as a Quebec company, isn't very popular here. LM needs to take this into account in order to win the fighter replacement order. A failing Bombardier aerospace operation is ripe opportunity for Dassault or maybe even Saab. Too bad junior and Bombardier couldn't figure out that providing a couple of billion dollars for a C-Series MPA would be a simple work around, just like the uncontested subsidies Boeing and Airbus get for all sorts of military projects. It is not like anyone here gives a $hit whether defence kit actually arrives!
Boeing has managed to make a martyr out of one of Canada's worst run corporations. Given all their problems with rail transport products and now this, they could fail (Boeing's plan of course). This outcome could produce an anti-American backlash even though Bombardier, as a Quebec company, isn't very popular here. LM needs to take this into account in order to win the fighter replacement order. A failing Bombardier aerospace operation is ripe opportunity for Dassault or maybe even Saab. Too bad junior and Bombardier couldn't figure out that providing a couple of billion dollars for a C-Series MPA would be a simple work around, just like the uncontested subsidies Boeing and Airbus get for all sorts of military projects. It is not like anyone here gives a $hit whether defence kit actually arrives!
Boeing has cleverly pissed off two governments which buy Boeing. Bombardier bought the old Shorts aircraft manufacturing business in Northern Ireland a while ago, & makes (among other things) C-series wings there.
There have been complaints in Parliament.
I'm sure it won't affect our P-8 purchase, but I can see Boeing having difficulties in new business.
Boeing UK contracts 'jeopardised' over Bombardier row - BBC News
There have been complaints in Parliament.
I'm sure it won't affect our P-8 purchase, but I can see Boeing having difficulties in new business.
Boeing UK contracts 'jeopardised' over Bombardier row - BBC News
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
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- #624
I agree, the UK really needs the P-8 now. Too bad Canada and the UK didn't consider developing a MPA based on the CS300 or perhaps a larger variant when the C-Seris was conceived. Had it not been for the collapse of oil prices, this phoney trade complaint likely wouldn't be happening.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
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- #626
Yes, I can understand UK reluctance given the history. Canada OTOH could and should have considered the MPA option as a convert subsidy for the C-Series development. The remote possibility of Bombardier actually delivering a MPA would be a bonus in addition to a viable commercial jet. A shame the Tiger has been such a disappointment, no viable alternative to the Apache so no leverage there either.
The Bell AH-1Z might dispute that, as would the Italian Mangusta / Turkish T129, South African Rooivalk and all the Sino-Russian examples...
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
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- #628
The Bell AH-1Z is an alternate that could be considered. The other choices have merits but Sino-Russian won't happen and Turkish content, not PC at this point.
J_Can
Member
At this point I rather we just give a Bombardier a license production run of the JAS-39E/F is not the best, and its not what exactly what we need. Hell its not even my personal fourth choice, but its something Bombardier can build, and its relative cheap to produce/ use. So at the very least we wont blow the budget (cannot spend to much on defence now
). Flying CF-18 air frames close to or past the 50 year mark is insane.
Also recently read an article on the CH148 final getting to some sort of viable operational status, so I was curious when the time comes to replace the Griffon fleet you think we could grab some additional more basic CH148 and call it a day? We would likely need a smaller amount of CH148 due to larger lift capacity. So maybe we could get some liaison/ recce helos like the Bell 429. Which if I am not mistaken the Coast Guard just purchased to replace some older helo fleets of theirs. They would also be perfect for the navy for minor helos need, or even the air force to stand up some smaller reserve sqs/ training sqs.
). Flying CF-18 air frames close to or past the 50 year mark is insane. Also recently read an article on the CH148 final getting to some sort of viable operational status, so I was curious when the time comes to replace the Griffon fleet you think we could grab some additional more basic CH148 and call it a day? We would likely need a smaller amount of CH148 due to larger lift capacity. So maybe we could get some liaison/ recce helos like the Bell 429. Which if I am not mistaken the Coast Guard just purchased to replace some older helo fleets of theirs. They would also be perfect for the navy for minor helos need, or even the air force to stand up some smaller reserve sqs/ training sqs.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
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- #630
If we were to consider a license build at this point I feel there may be more synergy with Dassault than Saab. France should be promoting a grand unified package in the background, Rafale, FREMM frigates, and some kind of sub proposal, preferably nuclear that could revive Ontario's nuclear sector. Another enhancement could be an invitation to join France and Germany in their proposed next gen fighter, ditto drone. Although the F-35 makes sense at this point, the US can't be trusted with regards to work share down the road when all sorts of issues start to unravel their economy. The Bombardier issue is just the beginning for us and their other trading partners.
With regards to the Cyclone, yes, it seems to finally be coming together but they aren't a Griffon replacement option, too big and expensive. Something smaller, preferably something licensed built from AW or Eurocopter in Ontario rather than a Quebec based US aerospace subsidiary, Bell.
With regards to the Cyclone, yes, it seems to finally be coming together but they aren't a Griffon replacement option, too big and expensive. Something smaller, preferably something licensed built from AW or Eurocopter in Ontario rather than a Quebec based US aerospace subsidiary, Bell.
J_Can
Member
Ya agree on everything more or less. The only reason I shy away from the Rafale is the upgraded and integration profile of it. For open source stuff their engines while good are slightly under powered, and the french have plans but no funding to upgrade them. The radar has to room to be upgraded but nothing done as of yet. While it is should in theory be cleared for almost any western ordnance, only a couple of non-french things have actually been fully integrated as of now.
I do think it would be a better fit if did go the domestic route, the FREMM, subs is just icing on the cake. They also have some nice self-propelled artillery that we could always use to. It is just the cost, the Canadian government of any stripe is so damn fickle with costs.
I do think it would be a better fit if did go the domestic route, the FREMM, subs is just icing on the cake. They also have some nice self-propelled artillery that we could always use to. It is just the cost, the Canadian government of any stripe is so damn fickle with costs.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
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- #632
As I understand at present the Germans want to move ahead on a new fighter sooner than the French do. Perhaps a smaller Rafale order together with a MRRT and FREMM order would entice an earlier commitment by France. Would really welcome a nuclear sub proposal but this is probably a bridge too far, sadly. If Canada was ever to consider nuclear subs, I wonder if this would alter Australia's plans given their concerns about a sub "gap". Canada, France, and Australia committing to nuke boats would hopefully speed things along and provide better capability for OZ (better endurance) and for Canada (endurance, under ice and distance). Wishful fantasy.
The SAAB Gripen has 40% US content.
Rafale is prohibitively expensive. Just ask the Indians.
Canada buying nuclear subs from France? Where is the money going to come from? You actually think the Liberals are going to buy nuclear subs? Are you living in Canada?
After the election in Germany, the new generation Franco-German fighter which never had solid support, not to mention little actual funding, is a dead issue.
If Canada refuses to buy the F-35 and welches on its agreement, the US has no choice but to stop the work share.
The US economy is going to "unravel when all sorts of issues start to unravel their economy." Are you serious? Economics is obviously not your strong point.
Last point. Canadians continue to be delusional as to the hand they are playing. It's a pair of deuces.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
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- #634
Yes, which is one of the reasons why I don't favour it.
The Indian deal fell apart because Dassault was ( correctly) not willing to assume screw ups by Indian subcontractors forced upon them. The deal morphed into a reduced build in France order for 36 jets. As for the price, perhaps they are more expensive, WTF knows. At this point junior and most Canadians don't care.
Yes, I live in Canada and either major political party could sell nuclear subs for Canada as I way to preserve Canadian jobs in our nuclear industry. Nuclear subs are a better solution for the RCN. The overall cost would be higher but keeping our nuclear industry viable would off set this. This Liberals could be trapped into into supporting this.
At some point they need a new fighter. A solo development program for France or Germany is not viable
Yes, but whether or not we buy the F-35, recent moves by the US indicate workshare in this program can be taken with a grain of salt long term.
Actually I am. While the US turns out lawyers and Iiberal arts degrees along with some bean counters, China is turning out engineers and scientists by the hundreds of thousands. US corporations ( and others) have given China all sorts of manufacturing technology in order for a quick return. Get ready for that funny anal sensation buddy.
Perhaps, but America is holding three of a kind along the the belief that JHC (and the Donald)is going to make America great again. GFL with that hand pkcasimir.:jump
Workshare is never guaranteed in the F-35 program, it’s based on value for money with all partners having the opportunity to bid on work packages.
However one thing that IS certain is that there won’t be any work for those not buying aircraft, other partner nations will ensure that. Now it might be possible to offset this with work on Gripen or Rafale or Typhoon, but the US will not ignore a lack of aircraft purchased when other partner nations are all clamouring for the same work.
Personally if Canada moves away from US based aircraft entirely (apart from in-service aircraft, obviously), I think they would be best served with a modern Rafale variant, adding the funding a fleet of 65-88 new aircraft purchased would, plus all the extra Canadian aerospace resources that could contribute to the program development (something that France on her own has struggled with) would do wonders for the long term viability of that program.
You really are out in left field with wild, ridiculous assertions and statements.
None of these is more ridiculous than the one that the US economy will unravel next year because China is turning out more scientists and engineers. That has absolutely nothing to do with how the US economy functions and if you think it does, it only reinforces the fact that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and are blowing it out of some rearward facing aperture. Perhaps you can give your secret mathematical equation that indicates that the shortage of engineers and scientists will result in the US economy unraveling in the third quarter of next year. Guffaw! US GDP growth in second quarter is 3.1% which for an economy as large as the US's is fantastic growth.
The Indians were desperate for the Rafale. The order was significantly reduced because of cost, not technology sharing. The Indians got what they could get in technology transfer then realized that they just could not afford the price of the Rafale. There are a number of reasons why the French can't sell the Rafale, the number one is price. You are just making stuff up. Do some research, which you apparently never do. Your personal opinions are not research.
Just because your personal opinion is that Canada should buy or build nuclear subs is no response to my assertion that Canada will never do it. Any intelligent observer of the Canadian political scene knows that I am right. Again, you substitute your personal opinions for reality.
Once Canada categorically states that they won't buy the F-35, something they have not been willing to do officially in a demarche to the US, Canada's work share for the F-35 will cease. The other partners will demand it.
It now is apparent that you have been smoked out as a knee-jerk, America hater with your concluding comments about "the Donald" and JHC (?) making America great again and the absurd comment about the American economy collapsing in the third quarter of next year. The last thing Canada need is it's defense policy being controlled by an opinionated America hater.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
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- #637
WTF did I say America would unravel in one year? In less than 30 years China has gone from barely above third world status to the second largest economy. The US is 18 billion in debt and continues to run big deficits. What do you think the positions of the two countries will be in 20 years?
Currently the F-35 stands a good chance of being Canada's next fighter, assuming people like you minimize your BS so why don't you just go away.
Currently the F-35 stands a good chance of being Canada's next fighter, assuming people like you minimize your BS so why don't you just go away.
There really aren't that many options. None of the other contenders are as capable and in some cases would not even be that much cheaper.
Trudeau just needs to swallow his pride and use the money he was going to spend on the SuperHornet to buy the first batch of F-35s instead.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
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- #639
Yes, that is what junior should and hopefully will do but a 219% duty on the C-Series gives him an option to ignore the correct choice and opt for some kind of save Bombardier via a licence build of Gripens or Rafales. I don't think anyone here would have raised an eyebrow at 70% or less but 219% has the anti-American crowd here in gear. Idiot teabaggers like pkcasimir can't figure that out and their rhetoric adds fuel here and elsewhere. A real Bannonite IMO.
I'm no Mod but this is supposed to be a mature and respectful forum. Disagree by all means but let all parties do it without the gutter hyperbole.