Long time coming TBH AW should of been replaced a few years ago but better late than never.
New Zealand Army
- Thread starter Whiskyjack
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Army recruitment
Need for army recruits drops as personnel stay on.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-st...-for-army-recruits-drops-as-personnel-stay-on
A Defence Force spokesman said attrition levels were at a historic low, so fewer recruits were needed.
Need for army recruits drops as personnel stay on.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-st...-for-army-recruits-drops-as-personnel-stay-on
A Defence Force spokesman said attrition levels were at a historic low, so fewer recruits were needed.
40 deg south
Well-Known Member
Very positive news, Mr C.
Scottish soldiers lend a hand in flood-stricken South Island - NZ Herald
On a similar feel-good note, the Herald reports on some visiting Scots soldiers helping out with flood relief.
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The MOD has released a list of those who replied to its Protected Mobility Capability RFI released last October.
- Rheinmetall MAN Military Vehicles (Australia)
- Mercedes-Benz New Zealand Ltd
- Iveco Defence Vehicles S.p.A
- Krauss-Maffei Wegmann GmbH & Co. KG
- General Dynamics Land Systems
- Thales Australia
- Tidd Ross Todd Limited
- SC Group
40 deg south
Well-Known Member
Any hot tips, Ngati?
I'm not clear what function these vehicles are supposed to perform? Is it a lighter supplement to the LAVIII, or more of a straight transport function?
They are to deploy along side the Lav 3, MHOV fleet as the Lov replacement ie take the place of armoured Humvee we used in the ghan or armoured pins in Timor.
From the RFI:
The NZLAV are up for a MLU, or replacement at some stage, so I think is one part of it and looks like that they are investigating which option to go with. The other overarching thread appears to me to be that they are looking at overall protected mobility, so the Pinzgauers may be up for partial or full replacement. All purely conjecture on my part.
I appear to have missed this. The MOD website states that:
"A memorandum of sale has been signed with the Australian Department of Defence for the transfer of Bushmaster Protected Mobility Vehicles" as well as the Supacat High Mobility Transporter (HMT) vehicle, as the replacement vehicles for the SOV Pinzgauers. Interesting.
"A memorandum of sale has been signed with the Australian Department of Defence for the transfer of Bushmaster Protected Mobility Vehicles" as well as the Supacat High Mobility Transporter (HMT) vehicle, as the replacement vehicles for the SOV Pinzgauers. Interesting.
t68
Well-Known Member
as you say interesting, anything on Hawkie?
Pinz partial sale NG at the moment Army still has a place for non protected vehicles deploying on humanitarian ops in the Pacific. Our gap currently is in the light protected vehicle space for CSpt & CSS plus Support Company platoons in the Infantry Bn interesting times ahead.
What kind of numbers are we looking at Dave - circa 60 vehicles when it all pans out?
No numbers coming out of Capability branch or Commanders briefing at the moment all very generic wish lists as stated in the latest Army news 60+ would be a very good educated guess basing that on weapon carriers, MP escort, gun tractors, ambulance basically those vehicles that span the range from current Pinz to MHOV.
I would think the light armoured portion would be priority to replace one for one the flawed armoured pinzgauer (the soft skin variant is actually fine) so that would be 60 hawkei/LMV types for example and then hopefully 35 bushmasters in lieu of the 35 "excess" NZLAV to support other roles. Perhaps a small number of dedicated armouerd SX MANs to support NZLAV ops and to complement the current fitted for MANs.
This plus a small number of each for the SAS and we would finally have a decent fleet of armoured vehicles better suited to a wider range of tasks, roles and threat levels supporting a larger proportion of the army in general. We should also tag the NZLAV MLU onto the end of Canadas LAV6.0 programme to leverage the already set up (therefore hopefully risk free) upgrade path as I can't see us replacing them wholesale at this stage.
Whilst the Aus hawkei is an obvious contender for the light armoured portion in conjunction with bushmaster, ANZAC commonality, regional support etc I also like the iveco LMV as well as it has been proven in Afghan with a number of allies and we could also utilise a similar deal with the brits as we did with the MAN trucks and purchase directly from their production slots for increased savings and timely deliveries. Guess it will come down to funding and whatever provides the biggest bang for buck. Either way finally good to see some action in regard to the armoured pinz outright replacement as TBH they were abit of a lemon throughout. We should have got a proven MOTS type from the beginning rather than trying to build an armoured version virtually from scratch just to maintain a common fleet, seemed good in theory but was a gamble in reality.
This plus a small number of each for the SAS and we would finally have a decent fleet of armoured vehicles better suited to a wider range of tasks, roles and threat levels supporting a larger proportion of the army in general. We should also tag the NZLAV MLU onto the end of Canadas LAV6.0 programme to leverage the already set up (therefore hopefully risk free) upgrade path as I can't see us replacing them wholesale at this stage.
Whilst the Aus hawkei is an obvious contender for the light armoured portion in conjunction with bushmaster, ANZAC commonality, regional support etc I also like the iveco LMV as well as it has been proven in Afghan with a number of allies and we could also utilise a similar deal with the brits as we did with the MAN trucks and purchase directly from their production slots for increased savings and timely deliveries. Guess it will come down to funding and whatever provides the biggest bang for buck. Either way finally good to see some action in regard to the armoured pinz outright replacement as TBH they were abit of a lemon throughout. We should have got a proven MOTS type from the beginning rather than trying to build an armoured version virtually from scratch just to maintain a common fleet, seemed good in theory but was a gamble in reality.
That's not a silly idea. It would make a lot of sense. I see that the Canucks are paying CAN$404 million for 141 LAV's to be upgraded. Hence if we upgraded 70 of ours, costings could possibly be around NZ$200 - 250 million which would be a lot cheaper than buying new 8x8 LAV type vehicles.
Don't forget the Stryker upgrade plan the US Army is following with the new turret etc being a part of the LAV3 group of nations we are in the loop & are seeing exactly what the other nations are proposing or implementing which gives Army a very detailed picture to inform the MLU proposals. IMO those spare LAV need to be converted to Logistic carriers, ambulance & mortar vehicles one common fleet between the F ech & A1/A2 fleet.
Dave
Would seem to be the most cost effective risk adverse option at the moment considering some of the other projects they have to bring online shortly. Don't think they would want to gamble another LAV "debacle". Would be interesting to see if they possibly up-gun as well as seems to be the theme or merely upgrade systems.
My personal view is that they should go to 35mm, because it has greater range and hitting capability than the current 25mm, so has the reach and power to neutralise targets armed with 30mm guns or less. However the Canucks didn't upgun staying with the 25mm.
I think that they should be fitted with a sighting system such as or with similar capabilities to the SAAB UTAAS Tank and Anti-Aircraft System - Universal Sight and Fire-Control System. This capability would give the NZLAV an AAA capability which at present is a sadly lacking commodity in the NZ Army armoury. The 35mm gun combined with this sighting system would be quite formidable against helicopters, low flying aircraft and RPAS.
Also during the MLU, the vehicle turrets should be fitted with the studs and electronic connections to enable the easy mounting and dismounting of vehicle box launchers for the FGM-148 Javelin Anti Tank Guided Missile and SHORAD missile such as Mistral or FIM-92 Stinger. The NZ Army already uses the Javelin as a man portable missile and Mistral as MANPAD (MAN Portable Air Defence). These two additions could be FFBNW on all the turrets with the weapons being mounted when required. These weapon systems would give the NZLAV a reasonably formidable capability for a relatively low cost.
Mobile guns are able to stop, shoot and scoot very quickly, literally within a minute or so and before counter-battery fire can impact upon their position. They are also easily able to keep pace with infantry forces and to support the infantry with direct or indirect fire. It is this ability that enables them to be employed across the full gamut of artillery roles from anti material / personnel to anti armour. In the NZ context a Mobile Fire Support System (MFSS) battalion would not normally be expected to attack an armoured division on its own because that is not within its concept of operations (CONOPS). However a wheeled MFSS based on the current NZLAV would provide a full range of fire support for the infantry.
The US Army M1128 LAV based 105mm Stryker MGS uses a remote control automatic 105 mm gun with 18 rounds loaded into the vehicle magazine. However there have been difficulties encountered with vulnerabilities including protection for the gun pod, commanders’ weapon station and the 105mm ammunition, which led to degraded capacity and unreliability. The restriction imposed by the US Army upon the Stryker MGS was that it had to be air transportable in the C130 aircraft hence its weight, width and height were restricted by the C130 design parameters.
A 105mm gun turret such as the Cockerill CT-CV 105 HP which is specifically designed for medium or light armoured vehicles would be more practical and less risky than the US M1128. It is advertised as being easily integrated into existing vehicles. The turret itself is armoured and can have extra armour added on as required. General Dynamics Land Systems (GDLS) Canada has awarded a €3.2 billion contract to CMI for Cockerill turrets for the multibillion dollar Saudi armoured vehicle contract. This contract includes the Cockerill CT-CV 105 HP turret as well as Cockerill medium calibre turret systems. From 2003 – 2006, GDLS, who build the LAV, and Denel (of South Africa) integrated the Denel 105mm howitzer with the Stryker, for a US Army light Self Propelled Howitzer (SPH) program. This program only progressed as far as prototype stage and then was replaced by the M1128.
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Yes was just wondering if we would take the oppourtunity to up-gun whilst any upgrades took place as technically this is our main FSV, Canada has other platform options so not such an issue for them whereas this is our mobile "heavy hitter" to a degree. Depends what level of firepower govt deems adequate I guess, to them 25mm could be sufficient and obviously cheaper to leave the current system as is. No doubt any change would be in conjunction with navy as well for generally similar reasons as well as logistically advantageous.
I think we would be more likely to up-gun the LAVs than adopt a MGS type system as that was the argument for losing the scorpions 76mm ie all NZLAV would have 25mm which was a vast improvement over the PCs .50cals and numerically went someway to covering the scorpion in terms of any firepower lost. I also do like the idea of a launcher system forvthat added punch/protection when the ship hits the fan I see benefits in a MGS system (even in limited numbers) but sadly me and the beans don't usually think alike. Hopefully they do at least opt for the other options mooted such as mortars which in comparison should be rather easy conversions.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
I agree and likely the Canadian Army does to. A 35 mm should have been part of our upgrade. Unfortunately junior is too cheap. A 35 mm should have been the minimum selection for the DeWolfe Arctic patrol ships but they are getting 25 mm, probably recovered guns from scrappd LAVs.
Apart from the limitations of the 76mm, what were the main reasons that led to the decisions to bin the Scorpions? Was it felt that something newer [more capable and survivable] was needed or was it mainly due technical issues and the inadequacy of the 76mm? Did the army ever looked into upgrading its Scorpions?