The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[the concerned]

Wouldn't the downside of these supersonic missiles be that at that speed they would have to fly straight which actually makes them easier to engage. It sounds to me that these missiles are more effective against poorly radar equipped ships the latest air defence vessels should have no problem handling them. What we should be looking at is developing a dual mode radar for the air defence missiles that can track in infrared because again at that speed the thermal signature must be high

 

[swerve]

In the past British Aerospace claimed that Sea Wolf was able to hit a 4.5 inch shell; whether Sea Wolf was the only missile with the ability is the question.

IIRC this was based on it having hit a 4.5" shell in a test firing. Perhaps other missiles haven't been tested against artillery. It's not an obvious target set.

CIWS vs supersonic targets? They can hit but the problem is the missile tends to keep going, so while it might be a technical kill, the impact of several dozen bits of rocketry travelling at high speed can still hurt.

Exactly. It's no good destroying the guidance, or even breaking up the missile, if it's so close that its speed still carries it into whatever you're trying to defend.

 

[Volkodav]

IIRC this was based on it having hit a 4.5" shell in a test firing. Perhaps other missiles haven't been tested against artillery. It's not an obvious target set.


Exactly. It's no good destroying the guidance, or even breaking up the missile, if it's so close that its speed still carries it into whatever you're trying to defend.

Hence the reason for RAM and larger calibre guns 35mm to 75mm to engage further out and hopefully prevent serious impact from debris. Guided 57 and 76mm are quite interesting and I have to wonder if guided 127mm would be an option too.

 

[Systems Adict]

Well, today was the day !

(Extracted from the Navy News Facebook feed)

"So, cities it is.

In the past two hours (9.30am UK time), work has begun on HMS Glasgow – the first of eight next-generation of Type 26 frigates, now to be known as the City class, like the famous classes of destroyers and cruisers before them.

And it was in Glasgow – BAE’s Govan yard to be precise – that the first Type 26 was laid down, with Defence Secretary Sir Michael Fallon ceremonially getting work under way.

The news of both the work beginning and the name were understandably welcomed by the nation's senior sailor.

“The Clyde was the birthplace of some of the greatest fighting ships the world has ever known, and so cutting steel there for the future HMS Glasgow is symbolic of a Royal Navy on the rise once again,” said First Sea Lord Admiral Sir Philip Jones.

“The name Glasgow brings with it a string of battle honours, stretching from the Arctic Circle to the South Atlantic. As one of the world’s most capable anti-submarine frigates, the Type 26 will carry the Royal Navy’s tradition of victory far into the future.”

The name has been absent from the Fleet since 2005, when the Type 42 destroyer which saw service in the Falklands paid off.

The steel cutting followed a £3.7bn order placed with BAE for the first three of eight future ‘global combat ships’ which will replace the equivalent number of specialist submarine-hunting Type 23 frigates; Glasgow is due to join the Fleet in the middle of next decade."

...& from BAE...

Production begins on Type 26 Global Combat Ship | BAE Systems | International

"BAE Systems welcomed Sir Michael Fallon MP, Secretary of State for Defence, to its Glasgow shipyard to press the button to start production of the first of the new Type 26 Global Combat Ships for the UK Royal Navy. During his speech, the Defence Secretary unveiled the name of the first ship as Glasgow.
This ceremonial event follows the UK Government’s recent award of a contract worth c£3.7bn for the first three ships to be built at BAE Systems’ sites in Glasgow. This builds on the work already underway to construct five River Class Offshore Patrol Vessels and provides a strong foundation for the next two decades of shipbuilding in Scotland, securing more than 4,000 jobs across BAE Systems and its UK maritime supply chain.

During the visit to BAE Systems’ shipyard in Glasgow, Defence Secretary, Sir Michael said:
“Today marks yet another historic milestone for the Royal Navy, Scottish shipbuilding and UK Defence more widely. Glasgow will protect our powerful new aircraft carriers and nuclear deterrent, keeping British interests safe across the world.

“The Type 26 is a cutting-edge warship that will maintain our naval power with a truly global reach. Designed for a service life of at least 25 years, the Type 26 Frigates will form a backbone of the future Royal Navy surface fleet into the 2060s.”

The Type 26 Global Combat Ship will be a world-class anti-submarine warfare ship, replacing the Type 23 anti submarine variant frigates, with the first ship due to be delivered to the Royal Navy in the mid 2020s. Globally deployable, the flexible mission bay, aviation facilities and combat systems ensure it will be capable of undertaking a wide range of roles from high intensity warfare to humanitarian assistance, either operating independently or as part of a task group.We are exploring potential export opportunities where we have strong interest from international customers.

Type 26 is cutting edge in terms of its capability and benefits from the latest advances in digital technologies, including 3D and virtual reality, to ensure that the ship’s design is refined earlier in the process. This has enabled BAE Systems to work in collaboration with the Ministry of Defence and the Royal Navy to ensure every zone of the ship has the requirements of its crew at the heart of the design.
Commenting on this important announcement, Iain Stevenson, Managing Director, BAE Systems Naval Ships said:

“This is an extremely proud day for our employees across the UK and our wider UK maritime supply chain. Providing our customers with next generation platforms and technologies that give them an essential edge is what inspires us. Working with the Ministry of Defence and the Royal Navy we have designed the Type 26 in a fully digital environment and have now seen her through the eyes of her crew in a 3D environment. Through this approach we have a mature ship design that is ready for manufacture.”


...& from DE&S...(its a picture on their tweet)

https://twitter.com/DefenceES/status/887989024358617089

& finally, from the UK Govt...

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/defence-secretary-reveals-name-of-first-type-26-as-manufacture-begins

"The Defence Secretary has revealed HMS Glasgow will be the name of the first of eight City class Type 26 frigates as he cut her first piece of steel at Govan shipyard in Scotland today. HMS Glasgow will enter service with the Royal Navy in the mid 2020s.


In front of the assembled BAE Systems workforce, Sir Michael Fallon officially began the manufacture of HMS Glasgow the first in a new generation of cutting edge frigates, delivering on the commitment to start production this summer on a programme that will sustain 1700 jobs in Scotland for two decades. Together the three ships being built under the first contract will safeguard 4000 jobs in Scotland and across the wider UK supply chain until 2035.

The Defence Secretary met some of the 260 apprentices that will be supported by the work on the Frigate on the Clyde by the autumn.

Defence Secretary Sir Michael Fallon said:

Today marks a historic milestone for the Royal Navy, Scottish shipbuilding and UK Defence more widely. HMS Glasgow and the other seven frigates in this new class will protect our powerful new aircraft carriers and nuclear deterrent, helping keep Britain safe across the world.

The Type 26 is a cutting-edge warship that will maintain our naval power with a truly global reach. Designed for a service life of at least 25 years, the Type 26 frigates will form a backbone of the future Royal Navy surface fleet well into the future.

The Type 26 is an advanced Anti-Submarine Warfare frigate that will provide essential protection to our nuclear deterrent and aircraft carriers, building on the pedigree of the Royal Navy’s current Type 23 frigates.

Its flexible design will allow its weapon systems to be adapted throughout its lifespan to counter future threats. The Type 26 benefits from the latest advances in digital technologies, including 3D and virtual reality, which ensures that the ship’s design is refined earlier in the process.

Admiral Sir Philip Jones, First Sea Lord and Chief of the Naval Staff, said:

The Clyde was the birthplace of some of the greatest fighting ships the world has ever known, and so cutting steel there today for the future HMS Glasgow is symbolic of a Royal Navy on the rise once again.

As an island nation, we are utterly dependent on the sea for our security and prosperity, and the City-class names have been chosen for the Type 26 to provide an enduring link between the Royal Navy and our great centres of commerce and industry.

The name Glasgow brings with it a string of battle honours, stretching from the Arctic Circle to the South Atlantic. As one of the world’s most capable anti-submarine frigates, the Type 26 will carry the Royal Navy’s tradition of victory far into the future.

As a world-class ship, the Type 26 has strong export opportunities. BAE Systems and the MOD are exploring these, with interest from international customers including Australia.

Tony Douglas, Chief Executive Officer for Defence Equipment and Support, the MOD’s procurement organisation said:

This is a very proud moment for all of those who have worked so hard to get the manufacture of the Type 26 underway.

With the first steel cut today in Scotland and further work spread out across the UK supply chain the Type 26 programme is truly a national endeavour harnessing all our skills and knowledge to produce the best possible ships for the Royal Navy.

Earlier this month the Defence Secretary announced the signing of a contract worth around £3.7 billion to start building the Royal Navy’s Type 26 frigates, securing the long term future of the Scottish shipbuilding industry. The contract is specifically structured to motivate both sides to deliver a successful outcome where both parties share in the pain and gain in the delivery of the programme. This will deliver better value for money for the UK taxpayer."


SA

 

[John Fedup]

Good news indeed. This should help the Type 26's chances for the CSC program.

 

[ADMk2]

Wouldn't the downside of these supersonic missiles be that at that speed they would have to fly straight which actually makes them easier to engage. It sounds to me that these missiles are more effective against poorly radar equipped ships the latest air defence vessels should have no problem handling them. What we should be looking at is developing a dual mode radar for the air defence missiles that can track in infrared because again at that speed the thermal signature must be high

Most modern warships have dedicated infra-red search and track systems for this very purpose. The thermal bloom is indeed what they are looking for. The RAN uses the below system (Vampir NG):

https://www.safran-electronics-defense.com/sites/sagem/files/surface_vessel_optronics.pdf

 

[StevoJH]

So the Type 26 will be another 'Town' class. Cruiser names, says it all about the mission set of modern 'frigate' type warships in First World western Navies really.

Still if the RN does only end up with 8 of them, that will leave them with only 14 Tier 1 major combatants. How many Type 31's are projected at the moment? Hopefully more then five given the RN's global commitments, its a bit hard to recall a ship from the South Atlantic for a short notice deployment to the middle east if its been on station for 6 months already....

 

[south]

regarding concerned's question..

The problem is that things that are moving very fast still provide challenging targets to engage, particularly if they have even slight manoeuvre or if they are not coming "at you" (I.e crossing target)

They may not be incredibly challenging to detect.

 

[StobieWan]

So the Type 26 will be another 'Town' class. Cruiser names, says it all about the mission set of modern 'frigate' type warships in First World western Navies really.

Still if the RN does only end up with 8 of them, that will leave them with only 14 Tier 1 major combatants. How many Type 31's are projected at the moment? Hopefully more then five given the RN's global commitments, its a bit hard to recall a ship from the South Atlantic for a short notice deployment to the middle east if its been on station for 6 months already....

Well, Type 31 is still rumoured to be relatively high end - however, it has dropped of the radar in recent months with no signs of it in any announcements or recent literature. It's discussed in earlier posts in this thread and we're not sure if that means it's being rethought and maybe the RN will end up with a GP variant of Type 26 instead, as was originally programmed for.

One interesting thing popped out of the announcement for steel cutting on the first Type 26, apparently the purchases included new radar sets and other material which was originally being pulled through Type 23. That would mean that they can go straight to build without worrying about pulling stuff out of a decommissioned 23, and also that there'd be more sets lying around than we thought.

And yes, 14 surface combatants isn't enough - planning was still running around 21 fairly recently despite numbers having dropped to 19.

Something will have to happen and that "something" involves building more ships.

I'd personally favour a GP type 26 - maybe they can build one with a simpler CODAG layout instead of the very sophisticated ASW orientated drive train in Type 26, but keep the hull - I'd sooner see something large with plenty of room that can benefit from experience building the first 8 Type 26, and of course, there'd already be a program ready to move over kit from the 23's so they'd not have to have two schemes of work to migrate sensors and weapons across.

Type 31 just sounds like a ball ache in terms of another design effort (if it's a new hull and not a variant) plus learning new lessons about construction.

We'll see. There are answers in Hansards on that and an indication that the desire is to grow the fleet:

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Lords...F83-A9BD-4B8D-AEC8-E06E25B6B0D7/Type31Frigate

 

[StobieWan]

Type 45 - project Napier

Tripped over this earlier, interesting background to the Type 45 and their engineering - I was very surprised to read that the primary contractor, BAE, did a study between the LM2500 (which is basically the "duh, what else would you pick?" option in GT's, given how widely they're in use) and the WR21 and recommended the LM2500 as it was simpler, cheaper and posed no technical risk.

HMG/MOD appear to have set that aside and chosen the RR unit against that recommendation.

https://www.rina.org.uk/Project_Napier_sees_twin-track_plan_adopted_to_resolve_Type_45_problems.html

 

[MrConservative]

Well, Type 31 is still rumoured to be relatively high end - however, it has dropped of the radar in recent months with no signs of it in any announcements or recent literature.

We'll see. There are answers in Hansards on that and an indication that the desire is to grow the fleet:

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Lords...F83-A9BD-4B8D-AEC8-E06E25B6B0D7/Type31Frigate

A DefMIn would have to be very much on the job when asked a question in the house by a recent First Sea Lord as in this case.

At one stage there were going to be 12, then 8 Type 45's and that dwindled to six to replace the 16 Type 42's. Then the Type 26 came along and subsequently dwindled. A long time ago when the considerations for the Type 26/GCS came along it was to replace both the Type 22 and Type 23 of which their were collectively 30. So somehow over a replacement generation the RN has gone from 46 surface combatants down to 19. No wonder Admiral the Lord West is disappointed.

 

[John Fedup]

Tripped over this earlier, interesting background to the Type 45 and their engineering - I was very surprised to read that the primary contractor, BAE, did a study between the LM2500 (which is basically the "duh, what else would you pick?" option in GT's, given how widely they're in use) and the WR21 and recommended the LM2500 as it was simpler, cheaper and posed no technical risk.

HMG/MOD appear to have set that aside and chosen the RR unit against that recommendation.

https://www.rina.org.uk/Project_Napier_sees_twin-track_plan_adopted_to_resolve_Type_45_problems.html

It is a shame the WR21 GTs (and underpowdered diesels) were selected for the IEP system. IEP is the future, especially in view of the forthcoming energy demanding new weapons (railguns and lasers). The Type 45 IEP doomed IEP for the Type 26. The CODLOG system for the Type 26 (1 MT30 and 4 MTU diesels) could generate as much power as the Type 45 if configured for IEP instead of CODLOG. It will be interesting to see how the QE class IEP works out (Zumwalt also).

 

[StobieWan]

A DefMIn would have to be very much on the job when asked a question in the house by a recent First Sea Lord as in this case.

At one stage there were going to be 12, then 8 Type 45's and that dwindled to six to replace the 16 Type 42's. Then the Type 26 came along and subsequently dwindled. A long time ago when the considerations for the Type 26/GCS came along it was to replace both the Type 22 and Type 23 of which their were collectively 30. So somehow over a replacement generation the RN has gone from 46 surface combatants down to 19. No wonder Admiral the Lord West is disappointed.

The perils of fighting an unfunded war in a land locked country with no conventional threat I suspect.

Between perfectly good escorts being paid off in a hurry to cut down on operational expenditure (four Type 22's with a lot of shelf life left) and the delays in ordering type 45, then Type 26..well. It's not pretty.

 

[Vulcan]

First carrier jaunt in 2021 is rumoured to be to the Pacific, 12 UK jets and 6 USMC. Better have a decent group of escorts around her otherwise it'll be a bit of a damp squib.

 

[t68]

First carrier jaunt in 2021 is rumoured to be to the Pacific, 12 UK jets and 6 USMC. Better have a decent group of escorts around her otherwise it'll be a bit of a damp squib.

Long way off to start rumors like that isn't it?

 

[StevoJH]

Long way off to start rumors like that isn't it?

2021 also isn't a RIMPAC year, which would have to reduce the chances. If you are going to do a pacific deployment wouldn't you time it so that you can participate in RIMPAC? Especially if you are rebuilding your aircraft carrier capability.

 

[John Fedup]

RIMPAC is held on even number years in June/July so 2020 is a RIMPAC year but 2021 is not.

 

[StevoJH]

RIMPAC is held on even number years in June/July so 2020 is a RIMPAC year but 2021 is not.

Sorry, post was in reply to Vulcan. Had 2020 on the mind because i double checked what years RIMPAC is on before I posted.

Have corrected previous post.

 

[Vulcan]

There's been noises about that being the case for the last few months. DefMin has confirmed US jets will be aboard on her first deployment and our US envoy made a lot of noises about sending the carriers to the SCS.

 

[oldsig127]

There's been noises about that being the case for the last few months. DefMin has confirmed US jets will be aboard on her first deployment and our US envoy made a lot of noises about sending the carriers to the SCS.

Yes, well, it seems that at the political level at least, it's a done deal. I am amused that the ABC is reporting this on air as if it's imminent, apparently being unaware that the first of two "colossal carriers" is barely starting sea trials and her deployment at best a couple of years away

South China Sea: Britain to deploy 'colossal' warships to test Beijing's territorial claims - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

oldsig