Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) News and Discussions

ngatimozart

ngatimozart

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I think Canada needs to seriously commit to an independent thorough study of its defence procurement systems and then drastically reform them, otherwise one has to ask how many billions of taxpayers cash is wasted because an inept procurement system continues to be used. I would cut out the Public Works Department involvement in the procurement process. If there are govt procurement laws / regulations to be followed then they can be applied across the board without having a series of excessive bureaucratic layers between procuring dept and the Cabinet. Until such reform happens, Canadian defence procurement is going to be as bad as if not worse than India's defence procurement bureaucratic nightmare. Just my half penny's worth.
 
John Fedup

John Fedup

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Somewhere in the review was a remark that procurement is to be improved by allowing DND to control 80% of all procurement without any other department involvement. Two problems, the remaining 20% is the important stuff that pollies love to screw with and the second thing, the inter- department turf war will require a leader with some spine. End result, procurement improvements are as distant as the funding for this review.
 
John Fedup

John Fedup

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vonnoobie said:
Thinking about it Australia is looking to acquire the remaining P-8's post 2025 when it is likely the P-8 would be out of FRP, If Canada can movethere purchase up a few years and perform a single large joint production with Oz it may allow both to reduce the purchase price of there respective aircraft. Food for thought.
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Nice thought but I seriously doubt Canada will invest in P-8s and given the more pressing needs, moving the Aurora replacement forward seems very unlikely. A biz-jet MPA (welfare for junior's friends at Bombardier) will be the choice IMO.
 
John Newman

John Newman

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vonnoobie said:
Thinking about it Australia is looking to acquire the remaining P-8's post 2025 when it is likely the P-8 would be out of FRP, If Canada can movethere purchase up a few years and perform a single large joint production with Oz it may allow both to reduce the purchase price of there respective aircraft. Food for thought.
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The P-8A production line could possibly stretch on long enough to dovetail into the time the CP-140's need to be replaced, but it won't happen due to what will probably be a 'political' decision and produce an in country solution based on a Bombardier airframe (regardless of the expense!).

Back to the P-8A, it appears that Saudi Arabia is interested in procuring some, possibly NZ as we know, possibly Italy and Spain too, who knows how long the production line will be open.

Anyway, the sensible thing to do would be to replace the CP-140's sooner than later, but probably not going to happen.
 
H

hauritz

Well-Known Member
John Newman said:
The P-8A production line could possibly stretch on long enough to dovetail into the time the CP-140's need to be replaced, but it won't happen due to what will probably be a 'political' decision and produce an in country solution based on a Bombardier airframe (regardless of the expense!).

Back to the P-8A, it appears that Saudi Arabia is interested in procuring some, possibly NZ as we know, possibly Italy and Spain too, who knows how long the production line will be open.

Anyway, the sensible thing to do would be to replace the CP-140's sooner than later, but probably not going to happen.
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Boeing isn't going to stop building the 737 airframe anytime soon so I imagine the P-8 will be available for a couple more decades.

Unless Canada comes up with a truly exceptional design I don't believe that they will be able to compete against it for sales in the international marketplace.

I really don't see much point in reinventing the wheel for just a domestic market of maybe a dozen aircraft.

One thing you can guarantee is that developing an aircraft like this will be obscenely expensive <cough>Nimrod<cough>
 
John Newman

John Newman

The Bunker Group
hauritz said:
Boeing isn't going to stop building the 737 airframe anytime soon so I imagine the P-8 will be available for a couple more decades.

Unless Canada comes up with a truly exceptional design I don't believe that they will be able to compete against it for sales in the international marketplace.

I really don't see much point in reinventing the wheel for just a domestic market of maybe a dozen aircraft.

One thing you can guarantee is that developing an aircraft like this will be obscenely expensive <cough>Nimrod<cough>
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Don't disagree that the B737 line will continue well into the future, but the P-8A line won't.

That's not to say that Boeing couldn't 'restart' production, but there would no doubt be a cost premium to do so, Boeing could also possibly slow down the delivery rate to extend production too, but then of course there are existing contracts and schedules to adhere to as well.

As far as reinventing the wheel, don't disagree, but I wouldn't mind betting that the eventual Canadian Government decision will be a 'politically' motivated decision too.

I'm sure if the RCAF was asked what they wanted they would say, "P-8A now please!"
 
H

hauritz

Well-Known Member
t68 said:
I shudder to think what all this is costing the taxpayer because they can't make a decision and stick to it, no wonder defence CN is in such disarray.
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It is just plain dumb buying Super Hornets as an interim fighter.

There was some justification for the RAAF as the F-111s needed to be replaced and the F-35 was not yet available ... but for Canada it is a different situation.

The money being wasted on an interim solution such as the Super Hornet could just as easily be spent on buying the first tranche of F-35s.

Hopefully common sense will prevail.
 
John Fedup

John Fedup

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I can't see junior switching the interim buy from SHs to F-35s, more likely he would just cancel the interim buy altogether if they are in fact that pi$$ed with Boeing's trade complaint. The government will then repeat the RFP for a fleet replacement and delay the decision until after the next election. If the RCAF is flying any new fighter by the late 2020s I will be shocked.
 
StingrayOZ

StingrayOZ

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John Fedup said:
Last week it was announced that Canadian officials would meet with jet vendors at the Paris Airshow then meetings were cancelled. Shortly thereafter they are now on again. I bet senior management at these aerospace companies secretly would like to tell these government fools to FO.

Canada first pulls out of fighter jet discussions, then hours later decides to go ahead with meetings | Ottawa Citizen
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Pretty bad. They can't even decide if they want to go into a room or not.

I'm thinking its starting to look like Canada won't get any sort of capability.
 
t68

t68

Well-Known Member
StingrayOZ said:
Pretty bad. They can't even decide if they want to go into a room or not.

I'm thinking its starting to look like Canada won't get any sort of capability.
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Gee you would think if you called the meeting you would show professional courtesy of at least attending, but not looking good for Hornet replacement.
 
gf0012-aust

gf0012-aust

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interesting to see the cangov is pushing back on trumps NAFTA trade narrative and have basically told Boeing to shove it

so no Shornets at this stage - and a possible shift to Euro weapons if not resolved
 
John Fedup

John Fedup

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The US business community will be facing a massive cluster if NAFTA falls apart, especially the auto industry. The resulting chaos in Canada's economy will eliminate any chance for rebuilding Canada's defence capabilities, something junior can see as a win.
 
P

pkcasimir

Member
John Fedup said:
The US business community will be facing a massive cluster if NAFTA falls apart, especially the auto industry. The resulting chaos in Canada's economy will eliminate any chance for rebuilding Canada's defence capabilities, something junior can see as a win.
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If Trump withdraws from NAFTA, WTO rules apply, hardly chaos. A Canadian think tank estimates that it would cost Canada's exporters about $4.2 billion (US), about 1.5% of the total value of Canada's exports to the US. Thus a very minimal effect on Canada; just how that would eliminate any chance of rebuilding Canada's defense capabilities is beyond me.

There has been an awful lot of hysterical reporting about this issue. Trump's main concerns with NAFTA are with Mexico and not with Canada. One must recall that NAFTA replaced the US/Canadian Free trade Agreement, an agreement about which Trump has never complained. In any event Canada and Mexico, despite all of the macho, jingoistic rhetoric, have no choice but to renegotiate the agreement. The nonsense that Canada and Mexico can prosper trading with each other is just that - nonsense.

US GDP: $19.5 trillion
Canada GDP: $1.6 trillion
Mexico GDP: $987 million
 
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