Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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hauritz

Well-Known Member
From DTR Fassmer seems to have a mature design that has recently beaten both Damen and Lursen for a German Coastguard order. Furthermore the Fassmer OPV 2020 bow is similar to Sea Axe:

https://www.fassmer.de/en/shipbuilding/products/navy-vessels/opv-2020/

and may be adapted for use on later batches of SEA 1180 build.
Unfortunately the OPV 2020 is probably not being considered. I think they are pushing the much more vanilla OPV 80

The Damen OPV 1800 has won the bid for the South African Navy so that may augur well for that design. I think that is the order for that ship.
 

PeterM

Active Member
From DTR Fassmer seems to have a mature design that has recently beaten both Damen and Lursen for a German Coastguard order. Furthermore the Fassmer OPV 2020 bow is similar to Sea Axe:

https://www.fassmer.de/en/shipbuilding/products/navy-vessels/opv-2020/

and may be adapted for use on later batches of SEA 1180 build.
The Fassmer design seems to be the low cost/ low risk option. It is in service elsewhere and they have proven ability for local builds (such as Chile and Columbia).
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Consensus amongst whom?

I think these days the definition of what might be called a destroyer or a frigate is less about 'size' but more about the configuration and role of the particular ship.

Does it really matter if a ship is 6, 7, 8, 9 or even 10,000t? I think what matters is its sensor and weapons fit.

The AWDs (or DDGs if you want to call them that too), have a primary air warfare capability and a secondary anti submarine warfare capability.

On the other hand the Future Frigates (or FFGs as they might end up being called), will have a primary anti submarine warfare capability and a secondary air warfare capability.

But lines between both types of capabilities that a ship might be equipped with have certainly blurred over time.

If for example, the Future Frigates are build on the same hull as the AWD's, the primary difference is going to be the AWD will have the sensors to primarily perform the air warfare role, but of course it will still have a decent anti submarine capability, on the other hand the Future Frigates are supposed to have a better anti submarine capability and a lessor sensor fit for the air warfare role.

But again as I said, the lines are more blurred these days, what was clearly a Destroyer or a Frigate in the past, is not so easy to distinguish these days, except for the fact that one might have a 'higher' capability in one area over the other.

I really don't care what they are called, as long as they do the job!!
Hi John

Maybe we could go back to the old ships terminology....... "Man of war".
Or would that be in this day and age of political correctness?........."Person of war".
"Nah" still too confusing...............;)
Agreed, as long as the ship is fit for purpose and can still fulfil its role, both individually and within a task force, I'm not to hung up on what it's called.

Regards S
 
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vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
About the only thing Canada has got right in there naval ship acquisition is the naming of the surface combatants. They aren't frigates, destroyers or anything else, they are simply 'Surface Combatants' because like it or not between different national terminology, miniturization of equipment allowing it to fit into smaller vessels, the growth in capabilities not just in destroyers but also more so in frigates and even to some level corvettes there is really no set clear defined classification anymore of what any class of ship is because many of them already and more so into the future perform all tasks. you might have vessels optimized to perform a role really well but they always tend to have the capability to perform other required roles. Personnaly I reckon we should dump the Cruiser, Destroyer, Frigate, Corvette classifications.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
About the only thing Canada has got right in there naval ship acquisition is the naming of the surface combatants.
Yes, the surface combatant term is indeed the ONLY thing that is right about this naval project for the RCN. It is a cluster, just like the RCAF's effort to replace their legacy Hornets.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
About the only thing Canada has got right in there naval ship acquisition is the naming of the surface combatants. They aren't frigates, destroyers or anything else, they are simply 'Surface Combatants' because like it or not between different national terminology, miniturization of equipment allowing it to fit into smaller vessels, the growth in capabilities not just in destroyers but also more so in frigates and even to some level corvettes there is really no set clear defined classification anymore of what any class of ship is because many of them already and more so into the future perform all tasks. you might have vessels optimized to perform a role really well but they always tend to have the capability to perform other required roles. Personnaly I reckon we should dump the Cruiser, Destroyer, Frigate, Corvette classifications.
Yes they are all surface combatants, but so is an Armidale Class Patrol Boat with its 25mm Bushmaster gun. While the lines are blurred I think the classification's still give a better reference to potential capabilty. But I see you point when you see the but try labeling something SCASW where the JPN definition of a Destroyer with Hyuga or the UK with Type 26 lots of confusion.
 

Joe Black

Active Member
Sea1180 OPV program a starting point for potential export opportunities

Found this nice piece of article:
https://www.defenceconnect.com.au/m...ting-point-for-potential-export-opportunities

I really do hope that Damen OPV2 1800 (Sea Axe) gets the tick, together with the 35mm millenium gun select as the primary gun for the OPV.

Isn't the decision due now anytime, I remember it was reported that a decision is due middle of this year... perhaps anytime now.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Found this nice piece of article:
https://www.defenceconnect.com.au/m...ting-point-for-potential-export-opportunities

I really do hope that Damen OPV2 1800 (Sea Axe) gets the tick, together with the 35mm millenium gun select as the primary gun for the OPV.

Isn't the decision due now anytime, I remember it was reported that a decision is due middle of this year... perhaps anytime now.
The final selection is anyone's guess. I suspect this project has more to do with the politics of workshare, more so than the other shipbuilding projects at hand.

The three prospects are very close in capability and their critical systems are less important than those of either SEA 5000 or SEA 1000. The only telltale will be how Defence sees the need for a hanger and in that case Lurssen has a disadvantage unless their offering includes some extendable arrangement.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Finally an official promo video of the type 26 being offered to Australia.

https:/youtube.com/watch?v=R3r72KZrAP0

Compared to its main competitor the thing that sticks out in my mind is the mission bat. I can't see how that could be incorporated into the F100 hull.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Finally an official promo video of the type 26 being offered to Australia.

https:/youtube.com/watch?v=R3r72KZrAP0

Compared to its main competitor the thing that sticks out in my mind is the mission bat. I can't see how that could be incorporated into the F100 hull.
Noting new in that sadly. No information on the number of cells and SSM outfit. The message is the same as it was about 12 months ago.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Noting new in that sadly. No information on the number of cells and SSM outfit. The message is the same as it was about 12 months ago.
Still quite a nice design, I like the flexibility in the mission bay, it is really a next gen feature on these type of multirole ships. With VLS, while we don't know for sure how many it will have, it seems very likely that it will be able to meet say a requirement of 48 VLS. I just wonder how many are strike length. Future missiles are likely to grow in size (range?) and capability, so extending in length is I think reasonable growth path. Also gives you a bit more flexibility with displacement growth margins that can be used else where. I think it will be be able to handle 48 VLS strike, but I would like to see them clarify that. Certainly a design to watch for the future.

The three prospects are very close in capability and their critical systems are less important than those of either SEA 5000 or SEA 1000. The only telltale will be how Defence sees the need for a hanger and in that case Lurssen has a disadvantage unless their offering includes some extendable arrangement.
I am just surprised they didn't put forward a hanger arrangement in the first place. Even if its just for UAV's or as flexible space. I would see that as essential for future patrol type missions, eez enforcement, search and rescue, heck even HDAR etc. Bread and butter stuff. Drones are very common today, even in civilian uses. Given the others have at least a telescopic arrangement that doesn't compromise in anyway it would seem to be a bit of a design miss for the biggest and most modern aviation operator in South East Asia/Oceania.

I like the Damen Sea Axe 1800 so much I think I have become platform centric about it. It would seem to be a fantastically obvious capability to be able to operate air assets up to and including NH90's (or more usefully MH-60R's) when required, but also smaller assets and drones. I also like its speed advantage in calm and rough seas, making it the ideal ship to patrol the 53 million square kilometers of Australia's SAR, or working with other allies else where outside of that.

More than any other asset I see the patrol ships of sea1180 as being the defining program of the RAN and maybe the ADF. They are likely to be the most numerous commissioned type of major asset in the RAN inventory, and when not at a state of war, are likely to do most of the projection of power and diplomacy of the ADF throughout the region and beyond.Or be enablers of that.

But it's not clear if these are priorities for the selection. All and any of them are going to be massive improvements over the current assets, I guess we can be happy with that.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I like the Damen Sea Axe 1800 so much I think I have become platform centric about it. It would seem to be a fantastically obvious capability to be able to operate air assets up to and including NH90's (or more usefully MH-60R's) when required, but also smaller assets and drones. I also like its speed advantage in calm and rough seas, making it the ideal ship to patrol the 53 million square kilometers of Australia's SAR, or working with other allies.
The current issue of Canadian defence review has an article suggesting Canada should supplement the AOPS fleet with 6-12 OPV for the Atlantic and Pacific as the AOPS at a maximum speed of 17 knots are only suitable for the Arctic. The article further suggests that 12 of these vessels could be built and delivered by 2024 for about 1.2 billion in foreign yards. As Canadian yards are at capacity now this is politically possible in theory. Weapons would add another 3 billion.

Twelve Damon Sea Axes or something similar delivered before the first CSC hits the water works for me, especially if this can be done for $4.2 billion.:)
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
I am just surprised they didn't put forward a hanger arrangement in the first place. Even if its just for UAV's or as flexible space. I would see that as essential for future patrol type missions, eez enforcement, search and rescue, heck even HDAR etc. Bread and butter stuff. Drones are very common today, even in civilian uses. Given the others have at least a telescopic arrangement that doesn't compromise in anyway it would seem to be a bit of a design miss for the biggest and most modern aviation operator in South East Asia/Oceania.

I like the Damen Sea Axe 1800 so much I think I have become platform centric about it. It would seem to be a fantastically obvious capability to be able to operate air assets up to and including NH90's (or more usefully MH-60R's) when required, but also smaller assets and drones. I also like its speed advantage in calm and rough seas, making it the ideal ship to patrol the 53 million square kilometers of Australia's SAR, or working with other allies else where outside of that.

More than any other asset I see the patrol ships of sea1180 as being the defining program of the RAN and maybe the ADF. They are likely to be the most numerous commissioned type of major asset in the RAN inventory, and when not at a state of war, are likely to do most of the projection of power and diplomacy of the ADF throughout the region and beyond.Or be enablers of that.

But it's not clear if these are priorities for the selection. All and any of them are going to be massive improvements over the current assets, I guess we can be happy with that.
Thanks Stingray

I do find it odd that no hanger for a medium sized helicopter was specified.As to which is the most suited, and who will win I cannot say. However, I do agree with your sentiment as to the future OPV,s importance in carrying out missions within our region. I'm confident that the increased sized and benefits of range and sea keeping of the ships will create opportunities not open to the previous three generations of much smaller patrol boats.
These ships will very much be the work horse of the RAN and I would not be surprised if further vessels are acquired at the end of the production run in the 2020's to either add to numbers or take on the survey/ mine warfare role.
For my 5 cents I like the the Damen 2600 which is not on offer..It's a larger ship with a good sized mission deck.
Anyway we will just have to wait for the result


Regards S
 

aussienscale

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I didn't see this on the horizon!!!!! ASC and Austal joining forces for Sea5000

https://www.asc.com.au/assets/downloads/20170608_ASC_and_Austal_announce_SEA5000_collaboration.pdf

I wonder what Forgacs Civmec think about this considering they went into partnership with ASC for the Sea1180.

Interesting times ahead for Australian Shipbuilding.
Thanks for that, interesting indeed. Just a guess, but assuming that ASC would be responsible for the steel hull and major integration work/block consolidation and Austal would do the Aluminium/Superstructure components ?

Time will tell
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Thanks for that, interesting indeed. Just a guess, but assuming that ASC would be responsible for the steel hull and major integration work/block consolidation and Austal would do the Aluminium/Superstructure components ?

Time will tell
Read a new's article on it and seems Austal want's to move into also steel ships so not so sure if they invision aluminum sections on the ship to source out to Austal.

Part of me is thinking (probably over thinking it) that this is an early move by the ASC to get Austal's a** into gear and make them a useful supplier of hull sections before the WA mafia forces work there way when they aren't prepared to properly manage it.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Read a new's article on it and seems Austal want's to move into also steel ships so not so sure if they invision aluminum sections on the ship to source out to Austal.

Part of me is thinking (probably over thinking it) that this is an early move by the ASC to get Austal's a** into gear and make them a useful supplier of hull sections before the WA mafia forces work there way when they aren't prepared to properly manage it.
Regardless of who teams up with who (and we have seen that lately for the OPV project too), my understanding was that when the Naval Shipbuilding Plan was announced recently that large ships will be built in SA and the small ships in WA, and we wouldn't be seeing a repeat of block work being distributed around the country as per the AWD project.

What I would imagine will happen is that Austal will set up shop at Osborne and produce whatever it is given to produce from there and not in Henderson and transport to Osborne.

If Austal was to perform 'block' work in WA for the Future Frigate program, it would appear to go against what the Federal Government recently announced as to how shipbuilding would be conducted here in Australia.

And of course the NSW and Vic State Governments would no doubt spit the dummy about that happening too, they would want there slice of the pie too.

Anyway, just have to wait until the winner of the Future Frigate project is announced, and then see exactly how construction is planned to happen.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Thanks for that, interesting indeed. Just a guess, but assuming that ASC would be responsible for the steel hull and major integration work/block consolidation and Austal would do the Aluminium/Superstructure components ?

Time will tell
From memory they are all full steel ships .... no Al superstructure.

Another way to look at this is Austal are being given work to keep them alive as they may not get the OPV so they will get contract work for the Future Frigate.
 
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