Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[SpazSinbad]

For all you Ikara tragics out there.
You even get to see and hear an Ikara cook off!

https://d2bx93w6kas18u.cloudfront.net/titles/ikarathe/ikarathe1_pr.mp4

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1983/1983 - 0235.html

rb

YEP Tragically I flew 'pretend' IKARA missions (the launch part being most fun) in a Vampire and then the MACCHI MB326H with an actual IKARA/TURANA fin in place of the removed rear seat from 1974. YES I have photos of both - but not of the fin in the back of the MACCHI. Can anyone identify this fin in back o'macchi here please? TAH. :coffee It has been a werylong time ago indeed.

https://www.faaaa.asn.au/mystery-photo-no-24/

 

[Volkodav]

YEP Tragically I flew 'pretend' IKARA missions (the launch part being most fun) in a Vampire and then the MACCHI MB326H with an actual IKARA/TURANA fin in place of the removed rear seat from 1974. YES I have photos of both - but not of the fin in the back of the MACCHI. Can anyone identify this fin in back o'macchi here please? TAH. :coffee It has been a werylong time ago indeed.

https://www.faaaa.asn.au/mystery-photo-no-24/

Love the RAN FAA scheme on the MACCHIs, always thought it would have looked great on a Goshawk

 

[SpazSinbad]

This one off RAN FAA Macchi side number 862 paint scheme was for Captain Clark when flying under instruction in the front seat with our SP of VC-724 in back. Just heard recently that at low landing speed slight problem due to heavyweight in front. But they all survived. One day the FAAM Macchi will have the 'ALBATROSS' tail - one day.

 

[Alf662]

YEP Tragically I flew 'pretend' IKARA missions (the launch part being most fun) in a Vampire and then the MACCHI MB326H with an actual IKARA/TURANA fin in place of the removed rear seat from 1974. YES I have photos of both - but not of the fin in the back of the MACCHI. Can anyone identify this fin in back o'macchi here please? TAH. :coffee It has been a werylong time ago indeed.

https://www.faaaa.asn.au/mystery-photo-no-24/

I am an Ikara tragic unfortunately.

If the the photograph is an Ikara tail fin the transponder just does not look right. They were not orange for a start. Their appears to be a few different versions of the tail fin, check out the attached photograph, it has a slot in it very similar to the one in the rear of the cockpit.

https://au.pinterest.com/noelmuller2/warships-of-australia-past-present/

I always remember a missile being dropped in the MAR. It's serial number was 666, not that I am suspicious or any thing like that.

 

[ASSAIL]

I'm not sure if this has been posted here or on the USN/USCG thread before however I think this x bow Ulstein design could have been an ideal design for the SEA 1180 programme and I suspect could have been cheaper.
It's a shame the USCG didn't select it for their replacement cutter.
This Vigor video shows how a true all sea condition OPC/V could have looked and I'm pretty sure Alexsa agrees.

https://youtu.be/8AzQlMO77-Y

 

[gf0012-aust]

I'm not sure if this has been posted here or on the USN/USCG thread before however I think this x bow Ulstein design could have been an ideal design for the SEA 1180 programme and I suspect could have been cheaper.
It's a shame the USCG didn't select it for their replacement cutter.
This Vigor video shows how a true all sea condition OPC/V could have looked and I'm pretty sure Alexsa agrees.

https://youtu.be/8AzQlMO77-Y

I raised some q's about x-bow last year - I believe Alexas set me straight

 

[SpazSinbad]

I am an Ikara tragic unfortunately.

If the the photograph is an Ikara tail fin the transponder just does not look right. They were not orange for a start. Their appears to be a few different versions of the tail fin, check out the attached photograph, it has a slot in it very similar to the one in the rear of the cockpit.

https://au.pinterest.com/noelmuller2/warships-of-australia-past-present/

I always remember a missile being dropped in the MAR. It's serial number was 666, not that I am suspicious or any thing like that.

'Alf662' depending on browser that link does not go to the single photo but to a page with many ship photos and only one IKARA that I could see - is this it: [Perhaps it is a TURANA fin in the Macchi?] ZOOM of fin attached now also.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/44/9b/38/449b38d85b6fdead030689df93b5f025.jpg

 

[Alf662]

'Alf662' depending on browser that link does not go to the single photo but to a page with many ship photos and only one IKARA that I could see - is this it: [Perhaps it is a TURANA fin in the Macchi?] ZOOM of fin attached now also.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/44/9b/38/449b38d85b6fdead030689df93b5f025.jpg

Hi Spaz, Apologies for the link, you have found the correct photo. I have PM'd you with some links to other forums that have relevant information. Would love to post the photo's here but they are not appropriate.

The photo of the fin in your original photograph has the strip half way down the trailing edge of the fin. The Ikara transponder is more bulbous at the rear of the fin and had an opaque plastic cover. The Turana transponders were longer, more bulbous at the front and were orange.

I think your original photograph shows a prototype Turana transponder, but that is only my opinion.

regards, Alf

 

[SpazSinbad]

Hi Spaz, Apologies for the link, you have found the correct photo. I have PM'd you with some links to other forums that have relevant information. Would love to post the photo's here but they are not appropriate.

The photo of the fin in your original photograph has the strip half way down the trailing edge of the fin. The Ikara transponder is more bulbous at the rear of the fin and had an opaque plastic cover. The Turana transponders were longer, more bulbous at the front and were orange.

I think your original photograph shows a prototype Turana transponder, but that is only my opinion.

regards, Alf

Many thanks - I'll check it the forums out. At beginning the IKARA fin in back of the Macchi was all I saw/flew (after new environment checked out by our Test Pilot LCDR McIntyre from AMAFTU). After I left RAN in mid 1975 (away from Nowra for one year before then doing flight plans & stuff for TURANA in Sydney, & in Melbourne on a hybrid computer for RANTAU at GAF) the TURANA fin was started to be flown most likely but I did not see that. You probably have guessed correctly and that is good enough for me.

Attached is my May 1974 logbook page (last month of flying at NAS Nowra) showing the IKARAfin flights for Fsup Fleet Support, the test flights would have been about one week earlier than first flight probably. I have a few photos of IKARA/TURANA in my PDF pages that could be attached also. Then there is a JPG attached of the 'flight' details of the TURANA hanging in FAAM Nowra.

The 97Kb file size limit for a PDF is just too small - I can e-mail it at 2Mb. No PM from U BTW?

 

[Alf662]

Many thanks - I'll check it the forums out. At beginning the IKARA fin in back of the Macchi was all I saw/flew (after new environment checked out by our Test Pilot LCDR McIntyre from AMAFTU). After I left RAN in mid 1975 (away from Nowra for one year before then doing flight plans & stuff for TURANA in Sydney, & in Melbourne on a hybrid computer for RANTAU at GAF) the TURANA fin was started to be flown most likely but I did not see that. You probably have guessed correctly and that is good enough for me.

Attached is my May 1974 logbook page (last month of flying at NAS Nowra) showing the IKARAfin flights for Fsup Fleet Support, the test flights would have been about one week earlier than first flight probably. I have a few photos of IKARA/TURANA in my PDF pages that could be attached also. Then there is a JPG attached of the 'flight' details of the TURANA hanging in FAAM Nowra.

The 97Kb file size limit for a PDF is just too small - I can e-mail it at 2Mb. No PM from U BTW?

Hi Spaz, just did another PM, one of the documents may have originated from you if you are active on another forum.

Keep in mind that Ikara's transponder communicated to it's rear with the ships guidance system. Turana's transponder needed to communicate through 360 degrees for the ships guidance system to control it. Being at the cutting edge of technology for UAV's, it may have been a technological hurdle that could not be over come at that point in time. Other posters on the forum may be able clarify this.

 

[SpazSinbad]

Hi Spaz, just did another PM, one of the documents may have originated from you if you are active on another forum.

Keep in mind that Ikara's transponder communicated to it's rear with the ships guidance system. Turana's transponder needed to communicate through 360 degrees for the ships guidance system to control it. Being at the cutting edge of technology for UAV's, it may have been a technological hurdle that could not be over come at that point in time. Other posters on the forum may be able clarify this.

Thanks 'Alf662'. Replying to PM seems not possible. I dislike PMs intensely - every forum has different PM methods and all seem intensely weird. So... thanks for first link - that is me years ago now. 'lucifer' was my 2nd callsign with 'sinbad' having to be given back to original user. Being under development & 'secret' there were a lot of things I was not told about IKARA/TURANA so knowing about comms link is new to me. It just communicated was all I needed to know at the time.

2nd link to ADFserials is me - 'luig' was my last nickname (everyone had one in common usage) as in "Geez Luig - what have you done now" ("Geez Louise" used on US TV shows seems to be back in vogue these days).

3rd link is WOW! Thanks for that - much appreciated.

 

[alexsa]

I raised some q's about x-bow last year - I believe Alexas set me straight

It really is horses for courses. I will try to find the original post and the link to the data. For the speed and sea keeping requirements the 'enhanced ship' (longer fore body) and Sea Axe provide a better outcome.

 

[StingrayOZ]

https://www.defenceconnect.com.au/m...shortage-to-cripple-shipbuilding-capabilities

The University of New South Wales (UNSW), which is ranked 6th in Australia's top universities and 78th in the World University Rankings, this year suspended its intake for Naval Architecture under the Bachelor of Engineering degree, with the course under review for possible closure.

The suspension of the course leaves only the University of Tasmania, through its partnership with the Australian Maritime College, as the only degree in Naval Architecture in Australia.

Students at South Australian-based Flinders University are also able to undertake a Bachelor of Engineering (Maritime) degree that is the result of a collaboration between Flinders University and the Australian Maritime College.

A spokesperson for UNSW said the decision to suspend the course is largely due to the lack of student interest in the course.

Awesome. No problems for a sustainable industry then.
With the kind of money being thrown around they really should have a sustainable plan for both Engineers and trades and the pieces in-between.

 

[Volkodav]

https://www.defenceconnect.com.au/m...shortage-to-cripple-shipbuilding-capabilities



Awesome. No problems for a sustainable industry then.
With the kind of money being thrown around they really should have a sustainable plan for both Engineers and trades and the pieces in-between.

And the people working in the industry who would love to and actually need to do it can't because they don't live in Sydney or Launceston and the programs provided are residential only. Try and get your employer to sponsor you and the answer is a resounding no as its cheaper just to hire someone qualified from overseas and blame the local skills shortage.

 

[ASSAIL]

And the people working in the industry who would love to and actually need to do it can't because they don't live in Sydney or Launceston and the programs provided are residential only. Try and get your employer to sponsor you and the answer is a resounding no as its cheaper just to hire someone qualified from overseas and blame the local skills shortage.

But there's will be loads of students studying environmental science, the antiquities and the breeding habits of bees making them totally superfluous and unemployable but trendy off course.

Sorry for OT, couldn't help myself.

 

[Volkodav]

But there's will be loads of students studying environmental science, the antiquities and the breeding habits of bees making them totally superfluous and unemployable but trendy off course.

Sorry for OT, couldn't help myself.

Many of the Naval Archs I worked with did cadetships in the 70s and 80s, most while employed by a shipyard, i.e. Codoc, Williamstown, even NQEA. Some were even apprentices who were flagged in their first year as having the requisite brains, talent and work ethic, their education being seen as an investment.

These days you need to pay for your own education unless mummy and daddy have the dosh to buy you a place, and you also need to hope you chose the right qualification at the right time or you can finish and be unemployable. A stack of my friends with engineering degrees had to go overseas to get work, while others with industrial design, science and teaching never got jobs in their fields at all, ironically those with Arts and seaweed weaving etc. got jobs in the public service.

Even today I know mechanical engineers with several years experience in mining who are unemployable because they don't have oil and gas or construction experience. The fact that they could quickly and easily adapt their skills to these related fields just doesn't register with todays recruiters and managers.

 

[ASSAIL]

These days you need to pay for your own education unless mummy and daddy have the dosh to buy you a place.

That's not correct, every student who qualifies to go on to advanced education can do so and not pay until they earn an income.
Those who have worked hard at school and get high scores can choose their subject and institution. Those that barely pass still get accepted into the more spurious courses with minimal employability and that's where the institutions need to take responsibility for what they provide.

The entire Maritime industry in Oz has declined gradually for a very good reason and that is because the industry is global, crewing is global, construction is global and a high wages country can't compete.
Naval shipbuilding still requires excellence and it's been a great initiative for the government to start up the college for required future design and construction skills in SA.

 

[hauritz]

Even today I know mechanical engineers with several years experience in mining who are unemployable because they don't have oil and gas or construction experience. The fact that they could quickly and easily adapt their skills to these related fields just doesn't register with todays recruiters and managers.

Having the actual specialisation that specifically relates to a particular trade isn't that vital. There is often a lot of overlap with these sorts of degrees.

Most mechanical engineering courses would equip with the skill sets needed to work in ship building, aeronautics, heavy industry or whatever.

 

[gf0012-aust]

also, nice happy snap embedded in article

Skilling up for a ship building boom | The Lead

 

[gf0012-aust]

Even today I know mechanical engineers with several years experience in mining who are unemployable because they don't have oil and gas or construction experience. The fact that they could quickly and easily adapt their skills to these related fields just doesn't register with todays recruiters and managers.

lack of lateral thinking more than anything

in my prev commonwealth life we did manage skills transfers

the ones I was directly involved with

no ballistic armour welders in Oz, the germans bought out trainers and we identified plastics welders as the next best fit (fine motor skills in seam welding)

problem solved

shortage of instrument fitters to maintain F-111 instruments - identfied a surplus of analogue watch repairers and retrained them

problem solved

shortage of qualified welders to work on Collins with overhead welding experience. there was a hole in the offshore drilling sector and we retrained boilermakers from the maritime and offshore drilling sector to fill the shortfall

problem solved

the problems then triggered the creation of the 457 process - which was then happily abused by industry over a number of years with each change of govt

and the problem exists in all its glory today - instead of reskilling in possible skills shortfalls industry has defaulted to using 457's - and when they don't get the staff they have usually pre-identified they then trundle off to their local MP and/or then Fed Minister if Corporate

and the self licking icecream of deskilling the local workforce continues