PRC Peoples Liberation Army Navy

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
With F-35B IOC (and FOC just around the corner) each of the USNs LHDs and LHAs potentially have more combat power and greater survivability than Chinas proposed fleet. F-35B can even turn a half a dozen or so regional flat tops into more capable, strike and fleet defence platforms in a pretty short , while the availability of a raft of effective ABM add on's for existing systems as well as new systems coming on line and being developed, is eroding the DF21 threat. The biggest threat isn't actually what china is doing, its choosing not to take appropriate action to mitigate the advantage they seek.
the other thing which is still not front and centre in a lot of the debate about JSF is that its no longer a platform debate - SOPS are literally getting rewritten due to the fact that an individual JSF is a significant enabler

there has been an exponential blow out of how the USN, USMC and USAF can elect to fight in combination - which is also why the addition of any extra SHornets (if that takes place) are not considered to be a threat to the life of future JSF

I'm not sure that this has really sunk in across the broader internet and "academically curious" bits of the community
 

Tsavo Lion

Banned Member
I anticipate two or more CBGs well before 2050.
By that year they plan to conduct carrier ops. anywhere in the World Ocean. 33 more years is plenty of time to train enough personnel & gain necessary experience; as noted by others they don't have to reinvent the wheel. Extrapolating, if at least 1 is needed in Med.Sea/Atlantic & 1 in N.Atlantic/Arctic = 2 x 3 to ensure constant presence results in 6 flattops more than 5-6 req'ed for Pacific/Indian Oceans. The total (incl. Liaoning & Shandong) is then would be 11-12, roughly the same number the USN had from the 1990s.
 
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gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
By that year they plan to conduct carrier ops. anywhere in the World Ocean. 33 more ears is plenty of time to train enough personnel & gain necessary experience; as noted by others they don't have to reinvent the wheel. Extrapolating, if at least 1 is needed in Med.Sea/Atlantic & 1 in N.Atlantic/Arctic = 2 x 3 to ensure constant presence results in 6 flattops more than 5-6 req'ed for Pacific/Indian Oceans. The total (incl. Liaoning & Shandong) is then would be 11-12, roughly the same number the USN had from the 1990s.


the PLAN has said they want 6 carriers, and they will be split across the Indian Ocean and PACRIM

that means a fighting pair and one in maint or deep cycle in each Ocean

NOT 12, They are gearing up for a two ocean force to protect resource interests and trade routes
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
the PLAN has said they want 6 carriers, and they will be split across the Indian Ocean and PACRIM

that means a fighting pair and one in maint or deep cycle in each Ocean

NOT 12, They are gearing up for a two ocean force to protect resource interests and trade routes
The force they are building is definitely defensive rather than expeditionary, the trouble being a big chunk of the territory they want to "defend" and effectively control access to is in dispute, owned / claimed by other nations, or in international waters and Belone's to no one. This defensive force is designed to control, but also deny access to waters critical to the entire region.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The force they are building is definitely defensive rather than expeditionary, the trouble being a big chunk of the territory they want to "defend" and effectively control access to is in dispute, owned / claimed by other nations, or in international waters and Belone's to no one. This defensive force is designed to control, but also deny access to waters critical to the entire region.
and in a piece of good timing and a nice segue

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/geo-strategic-issues/south-china-sea-thoughts-13747/#post321300

http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/...s-deny-passage-rights-through-peripheral-seas
 

Tsavo Lion

Banned Member
the PLAN has said they want 6 carriers, and they will be split across the Indian Ocean and PACRIM
Yes, but later they may need to deploy (even if occasionally) to 6 other areas as well: Arctic, N/Mid/S. Atlantic, Red/Med.Sea, & S.Pacific. W.Pac. & Indian Oceans are just the start!
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Yes, but later they may need to deploy (even if occasionally) to 6 other areas as well: Arctic, N/Mid/S. Atlantic, Red/Med.Sea, & S.Pacific. W.Pac. & Indian Oceans are just the start!
Based on what evidence? quite bluntly, the above includes locations which are just nonsensical

The chinese have made it strategically clear why they are a two ocean navy and that will be for the next 30 years as there are practical constraints

Can you stop fantasising in these threads as you are lowering the quality when you add command and conquer type analysis

Add facts and references when you make your claims because they fail on basic analysis.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
"Blue Water Navy" isn't just for the 2 oceans; the PRC surface ships have sailed around the world already. As things progress, I don't need more evidence to predict that their CVNs will appear outside of Asia/Pac. in the future. For me, seeing a glass of salt water is enough to imagine an ocean.
having written articles across a number of forums on what blue water navies are I can happily tell you that your ignorance outweighs your confidence about your actual knowledge

more to the point, you are going on a holiday from here because you are just degrading the quality of the threads with continual nonsense

you've been told so many times about how to improve your time on here but its not working

maybe an enforced absence will help

It would be an even better idea if you make the effort to understand what people actually say rather than inject your own interpretation and then further injecting additional off topic thought bubbles into your responses

hence why not only I but also others suggested politely that you read more and post less.

a nations ability to sail around the world or appear outside of regional waters does not constitute a blue water navy - and in the original terms it was about nations that had self sustained fleets able to defend themselves and exert influence and outcomes in each of the 7 seas, a localised as well as transoceanic ability - that reduced it to a club of 4 nations. Since the collapse of the soviet union, blue water now seems to refer to a fleet deploying and self sustaining, and being able to exert and influence by force in a given ocean.

China by definition is a regional blue water navy, her force structure is regional and is a decade away from being persistent transoceanic.
 
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ozrock62

New Member
Thanks GF and the Mods. This bloke was driving me nuts. Appreciate the focus on keeping things real. I am here for the informative discourse.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
That's a big increase in so little time, is it even realistic 100000 don't see the capacity to move even a 1/8th plus there equipment and stores after all they are only cutting steel for there 1st LHD sometime this year.
they can air truck in the immediate short term, eg they've had access to Gwadar for a while and Djibouti was also setup as a critical hub for their resource imports

they'll get bums on seats to make the initial numbers and the build up their skills accordingly.

its a generational project IMO
 

colay1

Member
PLAN is upgrading its ability to conduct amphibious operations. The new ship appears to match up well with the future LHA-8. able to deploy helos and landing craft.

China building navy’s biggest amphibious assault vessel, sources say | South China Morning Post

China building navy’s biggest amphibious assault vessel, sources say

China has started building a new generation of large amphibious assault vessels that will strengthen the navy as it plays a more dominant role in projecting the nation’s power overseas, military sources said.
The 075 Landing Helicopter Dock is now under construction by a Shanghai-based shipbuilding company, the sources said...

The Type 075 is able to deploy and house up to 30 armed helicopters. Six helicopters will be able to take off from the flight deck at the same time.
The vessels will also be able to deploy landing craft and troops, plus house command and control operations.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
It is suggested that the new PLAN CV Type 001A is to be launched on 23/4/2017. This is the first Chinese built CV.

the chinese forrestal class with gentle ramp up front :)

interesting that they haven't picked up on any of the design developments re aircraft spacing and handling of recent times

it's still basically a mid 60's design - and it will have less offensive firepower than a forrestal.
 
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