NZDF General discussion thread

t68

Well-Known Member
US Sec Def has given NATO members the hard word about defence spending with the members being told to start increasing their defence spending by years end in order to meet the 2% GDP defence spending requirement.

A National Interest article, The 2 Percent NATO Benchmark Is a Red Herring, discusses that the 2% GDP expenditure could be problematic for the US because the other nations may spend domestically on their own defence industries and drift from commonality with US systems, reducing interoperability. The second argument is that the other countries supporting their own defence industries will mean less sales for US companies.

However, both articles point to the fact that the US is starting to put the hard word on allies and friends to increase defence spending by the end of the year with 2% GDP being eventual goal. How Wellington reacts to this will be interesting because ultimately Trump could excluded them from 5EYES if they don't play ball and 5EYES is extremely important to NZ security; more important than anything else.


Don't think you kiwis have to really wory about it, it's more NATO and Asian countries. But if it had an effect on Wellington thinking all well and good.

It would be an interesting exercise on what NZDF cold achieve with constant $$
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
Don't think you kiwis have to really wory about it, it's more NATO and Asian countries. But if it had an effect on Wellington thinking all well and good.

It would be an interesting exercise on what NZDF cold achieve with constant $$
US President Donald Trump speaks with Prime Minister Bill English | Stuff.co.nz

The write-up of the phone call touches on Defence related matters but there's nothing much in this report to indicate what the US position might be - not that this would be publicly discussed at this point, nor even at a Govt level this early. I suspect there will be more pressure on NATO & Asian as you suggest, but some pressure from the US would be a good thing frankly.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Freyberg House to be demolished due to earthquake damage | Stuff.co.nz

NZ DEfence HQ to be demolished after earthquake.

On a scale of 1-10 for unexpected disruption, this would be about a 15. Good thing it is owned by a private landlord, so at least Vote Defence won't take a direct hit from demolition/rebuilding costs. I assume they may well have to wear the cost of temporary accommodation though.
They are moving into the Freyberg building which is behind Defence House. I wouldn't be to keen on being in the Freyberg Building during a quake. I used to be on the 10th & 11th Floors and it used to sway in the wind which didn't worry me. However after living through the Christchurch quake sequence I would be that keen to be on those floors again at the present time.

NZDF - Statement on Defence House
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
They are moving into the Freyberg building which is behind Defence House. I wouldn't be to keen on being in the Freyberg Building during a quake. I used to be on the 10th & 11th Floors and it used to sway in the wind which didn't worry me. However after living through the Christchurch quake sequence I would be that keen to be on those floors again at the present time.

NZDF - Statement on Defence House
I remember Freyberg house being opened when I was in D Eng. we never moved in while I was there. I would not be to concerned Ngarti, after all it is still standing while Defence house is coming down. Maybe the swaying is what saved it. Flexibility. May need to issue sedatives to the residents.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I remember Freyberg house being opened when I was in D Eng. we never moved in while I was there. I would not be to concerned Ngarti, after all it is still standing while Defence house is coming down. Maybe the swaying is what saved it. Flexibility. May need to issue sedatives to the residents.
Rum, navy rum. Double tot please :D
 

Novascotiaboy

Active Member
I understand that Wellington is the Capital and that the senior management of defence needs to be close but given the risk from multiple catastrophes would it not make more sense to locate defence offices to a safer locale?

A quick wiki search identifies Hamilton as amongst the safest locations in NZ from Mother Nature. Good sized city. Good transportation links. Between the major defence sites in and around Auckland and Ohakea and Linton.

Yes there would be disruption and changed lifestyles but the positives over time would make up for the initial pains.

Leased office space is likely cheaper and design build opportunities would allow getting exactly what is required, desired.

Whenupai and Devonport aren't going anywhere. By de-centralizing out of Wellington the 900 direct defence employees plus dependants would influence the Hamilton economy. At 132 km from Auckland dependants would also have employment opportunities there.

I know it's unlikely but tragedy sometimes offers opportunity.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I understand that Wellington is the Capital and that the senior management of defence needs to be close but given the risk from multiple catastrophes would it not make more sense to locate defence offices to a safer locale?

A quick wiki search identifies Hamilton as amongst the safest locations in NZ from Mother Nature. Good sized city. Good transportation links. Between the major defence sites in and around Auckland and Ohakea and Linton.

Yes there would be disruption and changed lifestyles but the positives over time would make up for the initial pains.

Leased office space is likely cheaper and design build opportunities would allow getting exactly what is required, desired.

Whenupai and Devonport aren't going anywhere. By de-centralizing out of Wellington the 900 direct defence employees plus dependants would influence the Hamilton economy. At 132 km from Auckland dependants would also have employment opportunities there.

I know it's unlikely but tragedy sometimes offers opportunity.
Why would you want to move NZDF HQ and the Ministry Of Defence 500km from the political centre of the country? It is the manner and form of mitigation that counts.

Everywhere in NZ is subject to some form of geologically related natural hazard be it seismic or volcanic or a combination thereof. When the 8+ magnitude quake from a rupture on the Alpine Fault goes off, everybody is going to know about it and there is a 30% probability of it occurring within 50 years. Whenuapai, Devenport and Papakura are within an existing volcanic field of 54 vents which are dormant. Hamilton, Ohakea and Waiouru are all within potential damage areas from a catastrophic explosion within the Taupo volcano, which is, one of the most dangerous volcanoes known to science; it and Yellowstone in the US.
 
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gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Whenuapai, Devenport and Papakura are within an existing volcanic field of 54 vents which are dormant. Hamilton, Ohakea and Waiouru are all within potential damage areas from a catastrophic explosion within the Taupo volcano, which is, one of the most dangerous volcanoes known to science; it and Yellowstone in the US.
are they all sitting inside a common caldera?
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
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are they all sitting inside a common caldera?
With regard to the Auckland ones, no I don't think so because they are all appear to be individual cones. I used the term vent because I think that the magma source may be the same hot spot due to their spatial distribution. The last eruption was about 500 - 600 years ago when Rangitoto erupted, forming the island. The Taupo caldera is the current lake itself.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
are they all sitting inside a common caldera?
No. The Auckland volcanoes are what is known as a volcanic field and is supplied with magma from a hot spot that is quite deep (!00km in this case) When the magma surges to the surface it usually forms a new cone. It is very rare for a new eruption to happen at an existing cone. In the Auckland case the field is fairly young so is likely to continue to have eruptions and each succeeding eruption has been bigger than the previous eruption. It has been estimated that we could get as little as 24 hrs notice of an impending eruption and will not know precisely were it will occur.
There is no caldera involved.
an interesting link http://info.geonet.org.nz/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=21430276
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
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Looks like Labour and the Greens intend to plunder the NZDF $20 billion recap for other spending if they become govt in September. An opinion piece on the News Hub website tells them different. It starts off with:
Labour and the Greens are in la-la land if they think they can use $20 billion earmarked for a long-needed Defence Force upgrade as a slush fund for their election policies. The Defence Force has been on the bones of its backside for long enough, and another round of austerity would see it lose many of its key capabilities.
Lloyd Burr: Labour/Greens will decimate the Defence Force
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Looks like Labour and the Greens intend to plunder the NZDF $20 billion recap for other spending if they become govt in September. An opinion piece on the News Hub website tells them different. It starts off with:

Lloyd Burr: Labour/Greens will decimate the Defence Force
I think la-la land is the right description, bet they would be the first to jump up and down if NZ could not join in a number of international HADR, peacekeeping and armed interventions if Kiwi nationals lives wee at stake. I think someone from Canberra needs to send a memo saying you are on you own if you don't replace the kit.

It's right about now I'd like to see a Chinese submarine show up in Wellington Harbour and see the kurfufel of said politicians.
 

kiwipatriot69

Active Member

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
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It's right about now I'd like to see a Chinese submarine show up in Wellington Harbour and see the kurfufel of said politicians.
They'd be out there welcoming it whilst brandishing their well thumbed copies of The Communist Manifesto by Marx & Engels and Mao's Little Red Book.
 

Kiwigov

Member
Latest Nicky Hager grenade

I imagine everyone here has strong views on the just-released Hager/Stevenson collaboration re the NZSAS (the National Business Review has quite a direct summary).
Notable that their book "quotes" Wayne Mapp (DefMin at the time), so it would be very interesting to see if he makes any comments either way.
Stevenson definitely has form re credibility, having been formally apologised to by the NZDF last year.
Of course, the NZDF could clear all this up by simply releasing the names and or photos of the several insurgents who were originally claimed to be killed in the raid, given that NZSAS would have had time to undertake ID?
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
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Minute 16:33 in this live stream of last nights presser Hager says the leaks came from with in the military by people who carried out carried out the raids. Link: https://twitter.com/citizenbomber/status/844049595114041345
The only Kiwis on the raids would've been NZSAS so the leakers would not be them. They take their security very seriously even after they leave the NZDF. If it was some other NZDF personnel then they were not on the raids and they are, at best, only providing hearsay evidence which is not admissible in a court of law, unless they can provide primary source documentary evidence, i.e., the original patrol reports. So who did they talk too? They should cite their sources in a case as serious as this, but they won't because that would most likely weaken their case substantially. They claim that their military sources are 20 people comprising of NZ and Afghan military personnel. IMHO the latter's testimony should be regarded as suspect because of doubts regarding where their loyalty lies. They should state definitively how many NZDF personnel they spoke too.

Both Hager and Stephenson are anti defence and anti US left wing types. Hagar has a habit of muck raking and publishing these great exposes prior to elections and generally they don't achieve anything except give some rabid left wing activists wet dreams. This book has created a slur on NZDF's and NZ's reputation and the CDF is not impressed. He has said that there had "better be some really good, hard evidence"
"If somebody makes an allegation today about Task Group Taji, because we train on our reputation, we will throw all the resources we can at that to ensure the facts around the case and if there is none, we will continue with our strong reputation we have had as a modern Defence Force."
So Hager and Stephenson may have just picked a fight that they are not going to win.

UPDATE:
NZDF Response To Book.

The New Zealand Defence Force stands by the statement it made dated 20 April 2011.

As the 2011 statement says, following the operation, allegations of civilian casualties were made. These were investigated by a joint Afghan Ministry of Defence, Ministry of the Interior and International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) assessment team, in accordance with ISAF procedures.

The investigation concluded that the allegations of civilian casualties were unfounded.

The NZDF does not undertake investigations or inquiries into the actions of forces from other nations. That was the role of the joint Afghan-ISAF investigation.

The NZDF is confident that New Zealand personnel conducted themselves in accordance with the applicable rules of engagement.

http://www.nzdf.mil.nz/news/media-releases/2017/20170321-nzdf-response-to-book.htm
 
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Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Minute 16:33 in this live stream of last nights presser Hager says the leaks came from with in the military by people who carried out carried out the raids. Link: https://twitter.com/citizenbomber/status/844049595114041345
And I call bull sh*t no NZDF person would go near Nicky Hager with a 30 foot pole, Group guys, support & HQ staff will take the secrets to the grave as will everyone else who has held Top secret & above clearance in regards to the work they carried out.

Dave
 
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