40 deg south
Well-Known Member
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAFFfiUZQ0Y
There is now a Siemens video on the topic.
H/t to the APDR site.
Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates
- Thread starter Padman
- Start date
There is now a Siemens video on the topic.
H/t to the APDR site.
An Australian MRH-90 Taipan cross decked to Te Kaha recently during Exercise Ocean Explorer 2017. Wonder if there is video.
Trans-Tasman ties strengthened
Trans-Tasman ties strengthened
Lockheed Martin Canada have delivered the new Combat Management System Trainer for the RNZN Frigate System Upgrade Project. The CMS is the LMC CMS-330 designed for the RCN.
Either hair rules have been relaxed in the RNZN or the FDO is female with rather attractive locks.
MB
RubiconNZ
The Wanderer
Waste of wearing a flash hood if you are going to leave so much exposed...
Female and a senior rate at that too. No guys can't wear their hair that long - well they can try but will find themselves up before Jimmy the One with caps off.
Yep, agree. Think she needs to cough up a 2 and a 4 in the mess.
40 deg south
Well-Known Member
Rivalry builds relationships | Navy Daily
Australia's Navy Daily reports an unheralded Kiwi victory. Next time the Aussies will add cricket to the list of sports, and NZ will be completely stuffed.
Australia's Navy Daily reports an unheralded Kiwi victory. Next time the Aussies will add cricket to the list of sports, and NZ will be completely stuffed.
40 deg south
Well-Known Member
http://navy.mil.nz/downloads/pdf/navy-today/nt208.pdf
Looks like the new Endeavour won't be the Endeavour. The latest Navy Today advises that the name of the new vessel will be announced at the end of this month, and that there will be a competition to help design the new ship's badge.
Looks like the new Endeavour won't be the Endeavour. The latest Navy Today advises that the name of the new vessel will be announced at the end of this month, and that there will be a competition to help design the new ship's badge.
I suggest HMNZS Taranaki as it will keep a connection with the ceremonial home port of New Plymouth and of course during the Cold War the first Taranaki served.
For the future and continuing using Provincial names - HMNZS Southland for the Southern Ocean Patrol vessel and HMNZS Waikato for the LOSV given the Leanders used those names?
With Otago and Southland it would be a matter of swapping homeports to make the names more apt and Manawanui replaced by Waikato would continue to use Whitianga as its ceremonial homeport.
I was reading in the latest RNZN Navy Today, (p.26), in 1946 the NZ Navy Board proposed to the NZG that the RNZN Fleet should comprise of:
NZ at that time could have quite easily crewed a light fleet carrier, especially the air wing, because many Kiwis had served in the RN FAA during the war as aircrew. We also had the those who had served aboard RN carriers as FAA flight deck crew, airframe fitters, engine fitters, armourers, instrument fitters etc. On the ship side of things we had plenty of sailors and officers who had served with the RNZN or the RN, hence the required knowledge and experience was present. We didn't have to acquire aircraft because we had hundreds of F4 Corsairs and TBF Avengers sitting around wasting away outside of Hamilton (they were later broken up and sold for scrap or buried). No need to get pommy aircraft that weren't as capable.
Would have we been better going with a light fleet carrier and the US aircraft we had here? If we had, it would have changed the force structures for both the RNZN and RNZAF down through the decades. We would have had a navy and probably an air force more suited for the vast expanses of the Pacific and not so Eurocentric, yet still able to operate fully with the UK in the Middle East and SEA, and the RAN and USN in the Pacific. The RNZN certainly would have been more easily integrated with the RAN and there would have been a potent ANZAC battle group comprising of three carriers plus escorts. The carrier, destroyers and frigates could've easily contributed to ASW as well as standard carrier ops, with some Avengers being modified for ASW. IIRC the RCN did just that.
Ah what might have been and the benefit of hindsight.
- 1 x Fleet Carrier
- 2 x Dido Class cruisers
- 2 x destroyers
- 1 x tanker
- 4 x corvettes (2 existing Flower Class & 2 existing Bird class)
NZ at that time could have quite easily crewed a light fleet carrier, especially the air wing, because many Kiwis had served in the RN FAA during the war as aircrew. We also had the those who had served aboard RN carriers as FAA flight deck crew, airframe fitters, engine fitters, armourers, instrument fitters etc. On the ship side of things we had plenty of sailors and officers who had served with the RNZN or the RN, hence the required knowledge and experience was present. We didn't have to acquire aircraft because we had hundreds of F4 Corsairs and TBF Avengers sitting around wasting away outside of Hamilton (they were later broken up and sold for scrap or buried). No need to get pommy aircraft that weren't as capable.
Would have we been better going with a light fleet carrier and the US aircraft we had here? If we had, it would have changed the force structures for both the RNZN and RNZAF down through the decades. We would have had a navy and probably an air force more suited for the vast expanses of the Pacific and not so Eurocentric, yet still able to operate fully with the UK in the Middle East and SEA, and the RAN and USN in the Pacific. The RNZN certainly would have been more easily integrated with the RAN and there would have been a potent ANZAC battle group comprising of three carriers plus escorts. The carrier, destroyers and frigates could've easily contributed to ASW as well as standard carrier ops, with some Avengers being modified for ASW. IIRC the RCN did just that.
Ah what might have been and the benefit of hindsight.
Novascotiaboy
Active Member
So what's wrong with returning to that structure, albeit a helicopter carrier in place of the fixed wing carrier?
It's been discussed before on this thread. Some type of helicopter carrier or LHD.
No sense maintaining the status quo. Time to be innovative and look outside the box as NZDF approaches 2030 and the fleet it needs to pull off the planned JATF.
The Algerian LPD has a crew similar in size to an ANZAC with three times the embarked force of Canterbury with a well dock, plus a long range search radar and ASTER 30 plus other armament all on 142 m and 8800 tons.
So much more capable than a frigate at a comparable cost. From sea base to command ship and ASW platform to HADR and foreign aid this vessel can offer the NZG a lot of flexibility. A 60 bed hospital dropped into the islands would offer a serious soft power implement. As an armed vessel consideration could be given to Mk 41 launchers, in place of the ASTER 30, for SM2 or SM3 plus Seaceptor. Increase the structural framework and install a BAE 5" bow gun and she now is armed better than the current ANZACS.
At under NZ$700 million it is likely cheaper than the planned ANZAC replacements.
Although it will never happen just think of the contribution NZ could make to coalition operations and HADR events if it choose to replace the existing ANZAC's one for one with two of these. Take the additional $600 million to make it a NZ$2 billion program and add additional naval helicopters to the pool and you have an impressive package.
It's been discussed before on this thread. Some type of helicopter carrier or LHD.
No sense maintaining the status quo. Time to be innovative and look outside the box as NZDF approaches 2030 and the fleet it needs to pull off the planned JATF.
The Algerian LPD has a crew similar in size to an ANZAC with three times the embarked force of Canterbury with a well dock, plus a long range search radar and ASTER 30 plus other armament all on 142 m and 8800 tons.
So much more capable than a frigate at a comparable cost. From sea base to command ship and ASW platform to HADR and foreign aid this vessel can offer the NZG a lot of flexibility. A 60 bed hospital dropped into the islands would offer a serious soft power implement. As an armed vessel consideration could be given to Mk 41 launchers, in place of the ASTER 30, for SM2 or SM3 plus Seaceptor. Increase the structural framework and install a BAE 5" bow gun and she now is armed better than the current ANZACS.
At under NZ$700 million it is likely cheaper than the planned ANZAC replacements.
Although it will never happen just think of the contribution NZ could make to coalition operations and HADR events if it choose to replace the existing ANZAC's one for one with two of these. Take the additional $600 million to make it a NZ$2 billion program and add additional naval helicopters to the pool and you have an impressive package.
I have always been of the opinion that a LHD and a LPD, both fitted with VLS and appropriate sensors, would be the optimal fit for the RNZN. However I would not travel the Algerian LPD route, but rather go South Korean with US weapons apart from Sea Ceptor, which we already have acquired for the ANZAC FFH. I would replace the 2 ANZAC FFH's with 3 South Korean built FFG/H along the lines of their KDX IIA including AEGIS. The Protector class OPV and IPV would be replaced with corvettes built along the lines of the South Korean FFX III design. The SOPV would remain the same. Additional naval helos would have to be acquired and that would have to be looked at closely. The funding for this is available within the current $20 billion CAPEX.
kiwipatriot69
Active Member
Arent we in a similar bind now, with only one Mrv, Canterbury, available for HADR? there is a good chance of it being tied up in an exersize, or worse, another local disaster or another overseas Cyclone occur requiring our attention,while she is unavailable.
Yes we are, but we are also learning how to do this amphibious warfare stuff and it is wiser for us to only have one ship to work with whilst we do the crawl walk run stages. If we had two and they turned out to be ginormous stuff ups that would be very expensive, where as with one there not so much treasure deep sixed if it all turns to rubbish. Think the Charles Upham x 2 - :shudder The only thing actually wrong with Canterbury is that it doesn't have a well dock. It does have some good points to it like the large flight deck and the extra wide bridge wings.
I have been of the view that even if we replace the CY with a modern LHD design in the future I would still keep the CY commissioned following a modest refit in a fleet training role (including aviation support) and have it as the 'home' vessel of the Naval Reserve and acting as a back-up sealift vessel to the LHD when contingencies such as HADR / SASO events in the South Pacific arise.
Novascotiaboy
Active Member
Ngati I am not so sure that such offensive oriented ships could be "sold" by the NZG to the populace. Although I agree a more heavily armed corvette is required than the current OPV's the idea of enhanced LPD's or LHD's as the primary vessels of the fleet makes the greatest sense to me.
Korean built yes but size is the issue. Given that the primary asset of such a vessel is its compliment of helicopters more will be required depending on how much capacity is built into the hull. Finding that balance of size is the issue. What is the optimum design parameters of such a vessel for the needs of NZ?
The current designs available range from the Algerian LPD at 8800 tons up to JC and Izumo class at 249 m and 20000 tons. As a replacement for the ANZAC's they should have comparable or better armament. Crew size is the $$$$ killer over the life of the ship so automation needs to be incorporated where possible.
As to the corvettes I was thinking more along the lines of Dutch "Holland" class. Strictly gunboat with the addition of some form of CIWS preferably above the hangar facing to the rear. Extreme sea keeping capacity along with extended range radars are the primary advantages of the design. Vessel design is suitable for coalition deployment to crisis areas such as Gulf of Aden and South China Sea.
The upcoming decision on the final design of the LOSC should be the basis for three such vessels. One equipped as intended to support the littoral warfare group while the second to be a transport and logistics vessel without the specialized diving and hydrography equipment. A third vessel should be optimized with ice strengthening for use as the SOPV. Maintain the armament the same as well as the RPAS capability.
RNZN fleet would see;
Two enhanced LPD's
Three Holland Corvettes
Three similar hulls for LOSC, Utility and as the SOPV
One Fleet AOR
Total fleet of nine hulls. More heavily armed than today's fleet, more helicopter capability, more sea lift, similar crew needs, greater warfighting ability, more surveillance capability.
Korean built yes but size is the issue. Given that the primary asset of such a vessel is its compliment of helicopters more will be required depending on how much capacity is built into the hull. Finding that balance of size is the issue. What is the optimum design parameters of such a vessel for the needs of NZ?
The current designs available range from the Algerian LPD at 8800 tons up to JC and Izumo class at 249 m and 20000 tons. As a replacement for the ANZAC's they should have comparable or better armament. Crew size is the $$$$ killer over the life of the ship so automation needs to be incorporated where possible.
As to the corvettes I was thinking more along the lines of Dutch "Holland" class. Strictly gunboat with the addition of some form of CIWS preferably above the hangar facing to the rear. Extreme sea keeping capacity along with extended range radars are the primary advantages of the design. Vessel design is suitable for coalition deployment to crisis areas such as Gulf of Aden and South China Sea.
The upcoming decision on the final design of the LOSC should be the basis for three such vessels. One equipped as intended to support the littoral warfare group while the second to be a transport and logistics vessel without the specialized diving and hydrography equipment. A third vessel should be optimized with ice strengthening for use as the SOPV. Maintain the armament the same as well as the RPAS capability.
RNZN fleet would see;
Two enhanced LPD's
Three Holland Corvettes
Three similar hulls for LOSC, Utility and as the SOPV
One Fleet AOR
Total fleet of nine hulls. More heavily armed than today's fleet, more helicopter capability, more sea lift, similar crew needs, greater warfighting ability, more surveillance capability.
Nope, frigate type warships because the DWP and DCP specifically state a Naval Combat Force. The thing about the South Korean builds is automation and cost. We can get a full blown AEGIS destroyer from South Korean yards for less than the cost of Type 26 or FREMM frigates. That's the point. There is no point replacing frigates with armed LHDs / LPDs because that doesn't work. You have highly expensive and valuable ships undertaking roles for which they are not designed or intended. They don't have the speed nor survivability of a frigate. The main reason Kiwi govts balk at most defence items is cost; VfM, and if they can see that they will obtain a high value asset for good cost then they will pay for it. Case in point the Endeavour replacement. They stumped up coin for extras that we thought wouldn't be included.
The reason I suggest VLS and good sensors on LHD / LPD and MSC, is that I am a firm proponent of distributed lethality and it gives those ships good defence capability. The corvettes that I suggest would not have the full FFX III capabilities, e.g., no AEGIS and only 8 VLS cells etc., with a 76mm gun that is on something like STANFLEX modules, meaning the gun is interchangeable with that of a smaller calibre.
Unlike Canada, we live in a region that is not benign and where tensions are increasing, where the majority of our trade transits waters that are within the area of that tension and will have a major impact upon our two largest trading partners, Australia and China. It's fundamental to our national wellbeing and security to have a blue water navy that is comprised of a combat as well as an amphibious force.
Yes that would be good, even better if the LHD came well before CY was too old as she would provide very good support for a LHD if we had enough helicopters to make it worth while.
t68
Well-Known Member
Agree, ideally I'd like to see a mix of Nagati and Mr C idea's. If you look at future 2035 it proposes a more heavier combat weight which should be sustainable overtime and as we have seen with both Canberra's going down as a precautionary measure you neve know when something might crop up, it happen with Choules and now the CBR's.
The crawl walk run anology that NG brings up is fitting but from where I'm standing come 2035 RNZN should in theory be in the run stage Charles Upham( crawl) Canterbury (walking) 1st LPD/LHD ( jogging) 2nd LPD/LHD (running) by that time also you should have the air mobilty jigsaw done and dusted time to invest in a more combat oriented JATFif not pushed into it sooner if what GF was saying about future predictions come true.