Well Australia's old Mirage III are still operational with the Pakistan Air Force so I guess anything is possible.
Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) News and Discussions
- Thread starter John Fedup
- Start date
Canada needs to be stripped of its share of the F-35 industrial contributions. It is unconscionable that a country would get to manufacture any contributory parts to this programme ahead of other countries who are first tier partners and have placed orders for the aircraft. Canada doesn't want it - fine - Canada loses any manufacturing that goes with it.
MB
Haavarla
Active Member
Perhaps Canada will order F-35, but at a much later stage.
And why all the harsh opinion on the matter. Its Canada own decisions to make. And none other.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
If it was just a matter of which fighter the RCAF selects, the it would just be up to Canada, but it is not.
At present Canada is set to participate in portions of the F-35 production workshare. That means money comimg into Canada from F-35 purchases, along with other partner nations. If Canada does not also purchase the F-35, none of the other workshare partners will receive money from Canada, will Canada will be receiving money from them. Basically for the money Canada contributed initially to the programme, Canada could reap many times that in F-35 component manufacture.
Plus with the approaching need to replace current RCAF fighters, there could be gaps.in the RCAF OrBat, which could cause.problems meeting treaty and joint force obligations.
Imagine the problems for NORAD if the RCAF had to ground the fighter fleet for a long-term period due to servicability issues.
I do not disagree - Canada can buy whatever aircraft it wants. However to sign on to a programme so that it can participate in the manufacture of that programme and then not buy into the programme is simply hypocrisy. It would be a different matter if the Canadian government made a contractual agreement to buy the aircraft - even at some time in the future - but it has not.
And until it does so, it has no right to participate in the manufacturing programme when other participating nations could, and should have that work assigned to them.
MB
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
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- #426
It will remain a cluster as long as junior is around. If he is re-elected, look towards a NZ solution, no fast jets. Illegal immigrants in the US are starting to flee here to add to the 40,000 Syrians which have been brought in over the last year. Even with a new defence friendly government, the financial black hole junior is creating will suck away the ability to buy anything, even used Australian legacy Hornets.
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John Fedup
The Bunker Group
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- #427
I'm sure LM is now looking for alternative suppliers since the interim SH buy decision. If they hadn't been so chicken-$hit they should have been moving business 2 years ago and perhaps the whining from the Canadian aerospace sector would have forced a different outcome, maybe not from junior but from his own Liberal caucus. The other issue for LM is the need to minimize concurrency issues. The last thing they need right now is a new vendor that screws something up. I am guessing they will be very careful screening replacement suppliers so it will take awhile. It will and should happen, eventually.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
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- #428
Even though I am a Canadian, I probably have the harshest opinion on this thread. That's because I am exposed to junior's stupidity every day and when I travel to Toronto I get exposed to the witch running Ontario who is every bit as bad. Junior actually thinks Canada is pulling its weight in NATO. Imagine the nerve of this fool who now has a defence budget at 0.98% of GDP.
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multiple reasons
1) canada is not meeting the minimum GDP spend on defence that is baselined for all NATO members
2) canada is still taking JSF production opportunities when she is not committing to the platform. work share was based on buying JSF for future force development - and canada took significant work under NAFTA as well as the agreement. That means that any other countries which are committed to buying JSF are losing negotiation leverage as they could well buy off the same or similar production ability as part of negotiating their own acquisitions. work share is seen as a fundamentally critical component of negotiations
3) canada has been getting numerous strategic warnings about changes to the strategic picture at both the canadian, NORAD and NATO level - so the politics has now had strategic impacts on her ability to plan effectively to counter those strategic events. canada has now entered the dead zone on being able to effectively have capability in place to counter those emergent issues and thats due to poor domestic politics. its a national interest impact, its a NORAD impact, its a NATO perception impact
4) while canada dilly dallies on JSF she is not releasing slots for other 8.3 JSF partners who may (and some do) want to get earlier slots. Its also impacting on other countries who now want to enter into JSF selection and are also wanting to get aircraft sooner rather than later. the JSF selection is purely now about political theatre and cant. there are no multiple choice options - and on bang for buck. broader force development, capability integration and on pure timing against strategic emergent threats canadian domestic politics has now become an international partner issue. domestic politics bleeding into international politics is never a good path
5) the malaise on fixed wing combat aircraft selection is also permeating through the rest of CDF selections and planning - and thats impacting on partners concerns
all of this could have been resolved decades ago, its all of their own domestic political making
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t68
Well-Known Member
I had not realized that the production slots where pretty much set in stone for partner nations, with all the slippages of the program, migh have to cut the UK some slack for the reason why they have not ordered B's in bulk.
In which lot buy where the Canadians supposed to have a majority of there buy in?
In which lot buy where the Canadians supposed to have a majority of there buy in?
John Newman
The Bunker Group
As I understand it, Canada is a 'paid up' Level 3 Partner (same as Australia, Denmark, Norway and Turkey), so therefore it is entitled to 'bid' for work, regardless of if we like it or not.
Obviously the contracts that have been awarded by LM to Canadian industry to date, will no doubt be honoured (as you would expect).
The question will be, how many 'new' contracts are likely to be awarded moving forward?
Hopefully LM can hit the 'pause' button until there is a decision, either way, from the Canadian Government and not award any new contracts.
And if the 'pause' button can be hit and a final decision by the Canadian Government drags on and on, no doubt Canadian industry will start jumping up and down and be making a lot of noise to their Government.
The ball is clearly in Canadian Government hands.
I do remember a while ago, it was reported that if the Canadian order didn't proceed, that it would 'add' approx US$1m per airframe cost to the overall global fleet.
Fine, not a problem, don't give any further work to Canadian industry, spread that work around to the other partner nations as 'compensation' for the potential increased per unit cost.
If for example Australia is faced with an 'extra' US$100m for the fleet, again no problem, compensate our industry with at least the same or potentially a lot more.
John Newman
The Bunker Group
John,It will remain a cluster as long as junior is around. If he is re-elected, look towards a NZ solution, no fast jets. Illegal immigrants in the US are starting to flee here to add to the 40,000 Syrians which have been brought in over the last year. Even with a new defence friendly government, the financial black hole junior is creating will suck away the ability to buy anything, even used Australian legacy Hornets.
Putting aside your, and others, feelings regarding your current PM, the problem is far far deeper than that.
I'm certainly not defending your current PM, but your previous PM was equally useless when it came to making a decision on replacing the Classic Hornet fleet.
Until there is some consensus or bipartisan approach, then the issue of what is 'best' for the RCAF and Canadian defence in general, is just going to keep dragging on forever and ever.
All very sad, but true.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
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- #434
This is why I said in an earlier post that Canada may end up with no fast jets. I do not see the conversatives forming a government any time soon and even if they did, it would likely be a minority government not that it matters. They lack the stones to make a decision. The Liberals could likely get away with no fast jets for the RCAF as long as they threw a few bones to the RCN. The electorate wouldn't demand very big bones either.:mad3
t68
Well-Known Member
Wont happen as you say the electorate may be apathetic towards defence but your southern neighbors are not, unlike NZ you have treaty obligation which involve a layered defence force function's outside of NATO.
How many aircraft needed for NORAD commitments that's your minimum stake.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #436
Remember who is in charge here. He would have no issue running away from NORAD. Unless the US uses trade as a tool to force better defence commitments, nothing will improve. The US will also have to stop the flow of their illegal immigrants into Canada or we will see even more dollars diverted away from defence.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #437
As the Canadian military procurement system proceeds at a glacial pace with respect to the interim SH purchase, the USN has received authorization for 7 more Growlers and 5 SHs. The back order log continues to increase making any quick delivery even more unrealistic.
Pentagon Contract Announcement
Pentagon Contract Announcement
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #438
Now that Laurie Hawn has been forced to resign as an honorary RCAF colonel, he is free to ramp up his critizism of the interim SH purchase. This link has his recent article.
Choosing Super Hornet over F-35 will just keep Canada grounded | Ottawa Citizen
Choosing Super Hornet over F-35 will just keep Canada grounded | Ottawa Citizen
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #439
This story should make Leonardo's contesting of the recent FWSAR to Airbus/PAL more interesting. I would say our conflict of interest rules need some work.:rotfl
Top DND bureaucrat jumps to industry – joins firm involved in winning search and rescue bid | Ottawa Citizen
Top DND bureaucrat jumps to industry – joins firm involved in winning search and rescue bid | Ottawa Citizen
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #440
As per the previous post, Canada's ethics commission has given the green light for other bureaucrats to jump directly to defence contractor jobs. As if we didn't have enough problems with our defence procurement system....pathetic!
Looking forward to an endless stream of litigation by losing vendors from here to eternity.
http://ottawacitizen.com/news/natio...ct-to-industry-opens-up-new-job-opportunities
Looking forward to an endless stream of litigation by losing vendors from here to eternity.
http://ottawacitizen.com/news/natio...ct-to-industry-opens-up-new-job-opportunities