Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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alexsa

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I would imagine that box launchers would take up more room than the same number of VLS launchers. Is that correct?
Sorry, I have been away for a while so I am responding to a number of posts. As John says .... how long is a piece of string but one issue you may want to consider when comparing box launchers with VLS ..... the VLS sits on deck and does not need below deck space. How much deck space they take up is a moot point if there is no space below deck for the VLS (as is the case in the current configuration of the the AWD).
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Sorry, I have been away for a while so I am responding to a number of posts. As John says .... how long is a piece of string but one issue you may want to consider when comparing box launchers with VLS ..... the VLS sits on deck and does not need below deck space. How much deck space they take up is a moot point if there is no space below deck for the VLS (as is the case in the current configuration of the the AWD).
Presume you mean the boxes sit on deck Alexsa (sorry, the old instructor in me)!
 

SteveR

Active Member
The F110 is much smaller
F110 is not that much smaller. The F-100 baseline for our AWDs has a fully loaded displacement of 5,800 tons according to 2013 Naval Institute Guide Combat Fleets of the World (NIG CFW). Global Security website:

F-110 Frigate

Is quoting the F-110 somewhere above the Norwegian F-300 class which has a full displacement of 5,130 tons according to NIG CFW.
 

aussienscale

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
F110 is not that much smaller. The F-100 baseline for our AWDs has a fully loaded displacement of 5,800 tons according to 2013 Naval Institute Guide Combat Fleets of the World (NIG CFW). Global Security website:

F-110 Frigate

Is quoting the F-110 somewhere above the Norwegian F-300 class which has a full displacement of 5,130 tons according to NIG CFW.
The Hobart Class are baselined from the F-104 giving them a bigger displacement than the original F-100, IIRC the Norwegian F-300 was also baselined from the F-100, albeit with smaller displacement among other things :)

Cheers

http://www.ausawd.com/content.aspx?p=97
 
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Hazdog

Member
Should the Future Frigate design proposals meet a future proofing capability? i.e. will there be enough VLS cells to accommodate a shift of capability like having extra cells for the addition (although unlikely) of SM-3, SM-6, Tomahawk and presuming VL-ASROC is selected due to it's Anti-Submarine capability. What else could be a future proofing feature.

With the Submarine diesels, HMAS Cereberus does have engines that generate electricity for the train purposes (the engines are used to train MT's), The electricity that is generated is then used to train ET's on switch boards and other Electrical equipment. Is that what you were asking Pussertas?
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
F110 is not that much smaller. The F-100 baseline for our AWDs has a fully loaded displacement of 5,800 tons according to 2013 Naval Institute Guide Combat Fleets of the World (NIG CFW). Global Security website:

F-110 Frigate

Is quoting the F-110 somewhere above the Norwegian F-300 class which has a full displacement of 5,130 tons according to NIG CFW.
The F-110 strikes me as interesting. It is not a million miles away from what is required by the Australian navy. In fact the latest model I have seen looks like it is very much based on the F-100/Hobart hull.

Euronaval 2016: Navantia Showcasing a Scale Model of the F-110 Frigate for the First Time

It makes me wonder if the design being offering by Navantia should be considered a modified Hobart or a scaled up F-110.
 

hairyman

Active Member
It appears that the only one of the three ships on offer that is currently on the water is the FREMM. Both the other ships are virtually paper ships, although steel is to be cut of the British ship this year. How far behind is the Spanish ship?
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
It appears that the only one of the three ships on offer that is currently on the water is the FREMM. Both the other ships are virtually paper ships, although steel is to be cut of the British ship this year. How far behind is the Spanish ship?
The Spanish say that their contender will have 70% commonality with the Hobart.
You could argue that this ship is the safest of the 3 options since Australia will be pretty familiar with it and it is already in the water undergoing trials.

IMO both the FREMM and Type 26 have some design issues. For example FREMM only has 16 VLS ... and these aren't full length strike VLS. There is space and weight allocations for another 16 full length VLS ... but this would still leave well short of the capability offered by the Hobart class in that area.

The Type 26 is pretty much made of paper at this stage ... and with the decision on SEA 5000 due next year they will have a tough job selling the design to Australia.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I should point out that the reason the F100 was selected for the AWD program was because it was seen as lower cost, lower risk was a consideration too because risk was seen to have an effect on cost and schedule. By selecting the F100 the government planned to build "to print" thereby avoiding the need to worry about building either a design (engineering) or build assurance (quality control) capability and therefore the associated costs and schedule impacts.

The irony is of course, by selecting a green fields shipyard, a designer who had never supported an overseas build before, and a design from a navy we had never had close relationships with, that also did not fully meet the RANs requirements, a robust engineering design, design review and build assurance capability became a must. This meant that the original assumptions that a number functions (if done at all) could be conducted by an individual, or a very small team of people who basically accepted deliveries of accurate, complete, proven and above all ready to go design data were completely wrong.

Literally every function that the government assumed wouldn't be needed, or could be done by small teams of "clerical" engineers, or even by individuals wearing multiple hats, was found to be a show stopper. After having just laid off the majority of the cadre of experienced designers and shipbuilders who would have been necessary for the G&C, not so baby anymore, Burke, new people had to be headhunted and teams formed on the run to fix problems that the government never anticipated would be encountered. This actually caused significant delay and cost increase before any of the build issues relating to design data quality or sub contractors happened, the project had been deliberately cut back to run on a shoestring prior to the critical design review as the CDR itself identified that the build would not work without reconstitution of design and build assurance functions.

Had for instance the G&C, or even an AEGIS evolution of the Type 45 or Type 124 been selected, full design and build assurance functions would have been a must, problems and design, even supply chain and contractor issues would have been assumed to be a certainty and allowed for in the budget and schedule while concurrently being mitigated against. The teams and eventually entire departments that had to be formed in the remediation of the actual program would have already been in place and instead of having to be grown would have instead shrunk as each project stage was validated. More would have been spent up front but overall project costs would have been lower than budgeted for.

The sad thing is the experienced shipbuilders, both local and from overseas (in particular from BIW, ASCs build partner, and ABS experts Raytheon hired in) were warning what could/would happen. Unfortunately government chose to listen to the commercial experts who told them that building to print, using an existing design, existing overseas supply chain, and qualified and experienced local subcontractors would be cheap and risk free, especially if ASCs role and capacity were strictly limited by not making them the prime.

This is why I cringe every time someone makes the point that there is 70% commonality, its an existing design, existing supply chain etc. These are just excuses the usual suspects with use to cut corners, make necessary people in critical functions redundant and repeat all the mistakes from the past.
 

PeterM

Active Member
My (admittedly limited) take on the Future Frigate program is that there is no MOTS option to provide the capability needed for the RAN’s future frigate program.

Both Navantia and Fincantieri have an advantage over BAE’s proposal in that their proposals will be on proven, in-service designs. We can discuss the merits of either base design, but the reality is that both Navantia, Fincantieri (and BAE for that matter) will adapt these designs significantly in the risk-reduction and design study (RRDS) phase to provide a proposed solution for the required capabilities of SEA 5000.

The Navantia proposal will leverage commonality with the Hobart class and our operational and construction experience. The question will be how well the F 110 design can be adapted to deliver the required capabilities such as advanced ASW.

Fincantieri already has an in-service ASW optimised design which will be adapted for our requirements. Like the Navantia proposal the RAN has a base design they can physically evaluate (for example ITS Carabiniere’s current visit to Australia).

Given the timetable needed for a decision to allow construction to start as planned by 2020 (with second pass approval in 2018), I would imagine both the Fincantieri and Navantia proposals would have a considerable advantage over the BAE proposal in that there is a considerable body of practical experience (both operationally and with construction) to feed into the evaluation process.

Sure there were construction challenges with locally building the AWDs, but in my (albeit limited) understanding, these have largely been addressed. The key is leveraging that experience for future builds.

The devil is always in the detail. It will depend on the various combat systems, design capabilities such as acoustic signatures as well as a host of other capabilities and requirements.

Do we know what the required "advanced ASW capability" is likely to look like?

Are there particular challenges or issues with either the base Navantia or Fincantieri designs?
 

rjtjrt

Member
What happens if in future if tensions build up in Asia? Perhaps hypothetically between Australia and say a large Asian superpower. Large superpower gets very serious and tells other countries itbtrades with to decide between us and them, in a very beligerent and serious way.
Said EU would have to decide between annoying Australia or the large superpower with billions in trade with EU.
We will have a large proportion of our Navy reliant on support from EU controlld countries. In past Europe has had a rather flexible idea of integrity in supporting Australian military equipment it has supplied, and they turn off the support just at the time it is really needed.
I hope our military have not forgotten the lessons of the past.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
This is why I cringe every time someone makes the point that there is 70% commonality, its an existing design, existing supply chain etc. These are just excuses the usual suspects with use to cut corners, make necessary people in critical functions redundant and repeat all the mistakes from the past.
But wouldn't there be significant commonality using the F-105 hull that we are already tooled up ready to roll with?

The issue I have with the 70% commonality is does that mean that its full of old systems, that are going to be a bit silly supporting in new builds into the future. 100% commonality sounds great from a sustainment and logistics view, but means your just building the same old ship.

It would be great to build an onshore training ship that is adaptable enough to flip from AWD to Frigate.
 

PeterM

Active Member
But wouldn't there be significant commonality using the F-105 hull that we are already tooled up ready to roll with?

The issue I have with the 70% commonality is does that mean that its full of old systems, that are going to be a bit silly supporting in new builds into the future. 100% commonality sounds great from a sustainment and logistics view, but means your just building the same old ship.
It would really depend imho on the specific details of what the 30% difference entail. Presumably that would include using CEAFAR instead of the AN/SPY-1D(V), but what are the other differences?

Should the Navantia option be preferred, I am hopeful that the future frigates are build in batches (perhaps 3 batches of three), with the technology baseline being updated with each batch. This updated baseline could become an upgrade path for previous batches of the class and perhaps the Hobart class as well (or at least the 70% commonality parts).
 

PeterM

Active Member
What happens if in future if tensions build up in Asia? Perhaps hypothetically between Australia and say a large Asian superpower. Large superpower gets very serious and tells other countries itbtrades with to decide between us and them, in a very beligerent and serious way.
Said EU would have to decide between annoying Australia or the large superpower with billions in trade with EU.
We will have a large proportion of our Navy reliant on support from EU controlld countries. In past Europe has had a rather flexible idea of integrity in supporting Australian military equipment it has supplied, and they turn off the support just at the time it is really needed.
I hope our military have not forgotten the lessons of the past.
Perhaps, although I don't see the issue. Various war scenarios will be planned for in any event. Plus we will have support arrangements through local partners.

A lot of our combat systems and munitions are US based (or at least compatible), so we can likely leverage the US supply train if required. Any major escalation will involve the RAN working collaboratively with our key regional allies. Our alliance with the US is quite strong and a foundation of our defence plans.Should tensions in Asia escalate to level you are suggesting, our regional alliances would almost certainly be in play.
 

alexsa

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Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
But wouldn't there be significant commonality using the F-105 hull that we are already tooled up ready to roll with?

The issue I have with the 70% commonality is does that mean that its full of old systems, that are going to be a bit silly supporting in new builds into the future. 100% commonality sounds great from a sustainment and logistics view, but means your just building the same old ship.

It would be great to build an onshore training ship that is adaptable enough to flip from AWD to Frigate.
My understanding is the hull form and most of the spaces below the main deck will remain unchanged. Even the upper works are similar except the mast and hanger area. As such much of the design work will carry over.

This does not prevent the fitting of new systems including power generation (which is a critical area).

The ships will have to be different noting the requirements are different including the sensors and combat system. As noted in the discussions systems have to evolve so it is impossible for a fleet of 9 ships built over 15 to 20 years to remain identical if they are to remain effective.

For the future frigate there is the opportunity to 'batch build' to tweak the design between batches. You never know such a process may allow the evolution of a new design between batches so the last batch could be the first of a new common hull form.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
My understanding is the hull form and most of the spaces below the main deck will remain unchanged. Even the upper works are similar except the mast and hanger area. As such much of the design work will carry over.

This does not prevent the fitting of new systems including power generation (which is a critical area).

The ships will have to be different noting the requirements are different including the sensors and combat system. As noted in the discussions systems have to evolve so it is impossible for a fleet of 9 ships built over 15 to 20 years to remain identical if they are to remain effective.

For the future frigate there is the opportunity to 'batch build' to tweak the design between batches. You never know such a process may allow the evolution of a new design between batches so the last batch could be the first of a new common hull form.
A small article from the ASPI re UAV for the Navy.
https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/unmanned-naval-aviation-bigger-better/

Much has been said before but it highlights this growing area of technology and how we may intend to use it in the future battle space.

Regards S
 

SteveR

Active Member
A small article from the ASPI re UAV for the Navy.
https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/unmanned-naval-aviation-bigger-better/

Much has been said before but it highlights this growing area of technology and how we may intend to use it in the future battle space.

Regards S
Following on from Alexa's comment on great importance of power generation to support forthcoming weapons e.g. directed energy,see the following USNI article:

https://news.usni.org/2017/02/14/23693#more-23693

this where the Type 26 may have made provision that the FREMM had not allowed. Certainly Navantia had better make greater provision in its AWD revision.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Following on from Alexa's comment on great importance of power generation to support forthcoming weapons e.g. directed energy,see the following USNI article:

https://news.usni.org/2017/02/14/23693#more-23693

this where the Type 26 may have made provision that the FREMM had not allowed. Certainly Navantia had better make greater provision in its AWD revision.
Too bad the Type 26 doesn't incorporate an IEP for its MT30 and 4 MTU diesels. Unfortunately the Darling class IEP gave the IEP a bad rap. Clearly, for large surface ships over 7000 tons, this technology is the best solution for future energy hog weapons like lasers and railguns. This assumes the IEP is properly sized.
 
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