The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

Sellers

New Member
My view is that we need to become task specific:

-Clearly there is in increased russian presence in and around uk waters. Therefore, the CASD role should be filled with a ASW t23/26.

-I think post Brexit and in conjunction with the above point we should have a presence in the Baltic sea, for the same reasons i'd deploy an ASW t23/26.

-Any carrier group would need at least one ASW t23/26.

-And anything deploying east to the indian ocean and perhaps beyond would ideally need in my eyes to have ASW capability.

That meant the current 8 would not be sufficient, with at least 11 required so I worked from that point. In the belief that the t31 will be severly limited (arguably to only an east of suez/fres tasking). Therefore, I 'budgeted' for the additional cost by cancelling the t31, reducing overall FF replacement and paring down of non ASW capability.

In support of my first point of russian activity, it would be prudent to have sub availabilty as high as possible in and around uk waters. Diesels to me are a non starter as are more astutes. Therefore, being task specific, if we could alleviate the landstrike responsibilty from the sub fleet, by adding mk 41 to the 6 t45 rather than the planned 8 t26. We can then retask the subs to British Northern European waters, providing a more consistent and genuine deterrent.

The t45 can then focus on the gulf, where its AEW cover makes sense in conjunction with allied and likely British carrier deployments. As well as 'fleet' protection for the x4 minesweepers, x2 rfa ships in the region plus any additional assets deployed periodically. Whilst now also providing constant landstrike capability.

Fres covered by t45 too, as the class would be a genuine 'all rounder' particularly if paired with a merlin. To react to world events.

Finally, the relieved manning from the reduction in the frigate fleet would allow the rivers to be retained. Allowing them to be deployed where FF/DD are arguably overkill, including the falklands, where i believe with tri service assets deployed, and the state of argentine defence enables us, for a time, to pause this regular deployment (as has been the case recently). By retaining the rivers this actually gives us more coverage, admittedly at a lower level, but to taskings that demand no higher capability.

Just my thoughts on it.

I agree, in that preferably i'd like the t26 to have mk41 too, but wanted to justify any gains against realistic losses

Cheers Sellers
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I wonder if they are getting there ship mixed up T45 is not that old, they ate having problems but it's the 1st I have heard of this.

Former naval officer says England's outdated submarines sound like a 'box of spanners' - 9news.com.au
No, he said that of the T45 if the British press is to be believed. However, they also say new destroyers, so the bit about old is a purely Channel Nine cock up.

Commissioned between 2009 and 2013 so they range in age from 7 1/2 years (Daring) and 3 1/2 years (Duncan). In naval ship building timelines they're still busy shaking down the design

oldsig
 

the concerned

Active Member
I still think that we should look into the air defence variant of the type 26 to be built on the end . By then the first t45 would be between 15 and 20yrs old so a natural following on would make sense
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
General opinions of making Frigate designs into AWD designs is "it won't fit"

Clean sheet design, and make it big - the Type 45's are already looking cramped if you've flag officer and staff aboard - just say "f*ck it" and make it big. Not a concern for another fifteen years or so however, assuming the usual development cycle.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
General opinions of making Frigate designs into AWD designs is "it won't fit"

Clean sheet design, and make it big - the Type 45's are already looking cramped if you've flag officer and staff aboard - just say "f*ck it" and make it big. Not a concern for another fifteen years or so however, assuming the usual development cycle.
Ironically before joining horizon the RN was looking at a 175m long design with VLS fore and aft, ships boats aft, medium calibre gun forward. It would likely have had COGAG propulsion, can't remember if it was one or two Merlins and possibly more volume than an Arleigh Burke. The mag with the article, either Naval Forces or Military Technology, was lost a couple of moves ago.

Everyone (well politicians, media and uninformed general public who were oposed to spending what was needed when it was needed) is so surprised when hit by block obsolescence and when the shiny new platforms prove too small, have teething problems or are possibly no even fit for service, yet when you look back at the original requirements, especially those based on active/combat experience, you will usually find a concept, or even design, that would have been a better fit today, been in service earlier and possibly even cost less through life.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Bit of an informal carrier update - was chatting to someone I know on the crew, and she's under her own power now, running engines up almost every day. She's fitted with brake blades which I'd not heard of until today - they allow her to run up to full power without producing any thrust. There's an article here from a bit back that I missed that describes something I found extraordinary - that they plan to swap these articles out underwater for the real deal.


http://www.aircraftcarrieralliance....gramme-update/2015-weekly-comms/june-2015.pdf
 

walter

Active Member
I'm sure the RN will remedy the problems (noise)with the Type-45.
To give an example: the LCF had the same sort of problems too(maybe not quite as big,i'm not sure);)

-Noisy axel bearings,replaced with upgraded ones.
-Noisy and not up to spec props,replaced with new ones
-A "tick"(sound) in the axel itself,fixed
The problem offcourse is that all that cost money( off wich the KM also doesn't have a bundle)but still it's needed to fix the problems.
To say "well the Type-45 were never intended to do ASW work is too simple,i mean what's to say that a hostile sub won't chase a Type?

I'm sure(hope)the RN will come to the same conclusion.;)
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I still think that we should look into the air defence variant of the type 26 to be built on the end . By then the first t45 would be between 15 and 20yrs old so a natural following on would make sense
Hmmmm...

Your comment sounds like 'common sense'.

However, WHEN have the procurement bods at Whitehall & the RN Chiefs of staff actually sat down & looked at what they want, what they need & what UK PLC can actually afford ??

THIS is where the common sense is needed & unfortunately the shipbuilder will be asked to design something (based on what they've been told to include), & that will take approx 4 -5 years to get to the point where the RN will say, I wish we had a 'clean sheet' to start again. T45 was a case in point when production started in 2001 & by late 2005, they publicly wished they had something else.

To tie in with other comments on the page (relating to size), T45 is 154m long / 18m at the beam, T26 is currently 148m long & 19m at the beam. Both ship designs are BIG in comparison to some of the previous vessel designs, but both are bursting at the seams & based on current operational demand, could do with being bigger.

T31 will allegedly be a little shorter & a little thinner, as well as being a little lighter (as it will be a GP version of T26, so LOTS of stuff will be removed...), so will it suffice for the task ??.

Rolling T26 / T31 together, their production run will allegedly end in 2038 !, assuming that UK PLC actually finds the cash.


& as I'm getting frustrated & angry, I'll end my comment here, no matter whether it makes sense or not !

SA :mad
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Bit of an informal carrier update - was chatting to someone I know on the crew, and she's under her own power now, running engines up almost every day. She's fitted with brake blades which I'd not heard of until today - they allow her to run up to full power without producing any thrust. There's an article here from a bit back that I missed that describes something I found extraordinary - that they plan to swap these articles out underwater for the real deal.


http://www.aircraftcarrieralliance....gramme-update/2015-weekly-comms/june-2015.pdf
Given the size of the blades, it will be a very interesting job replacing the brake blades with the propulsion blades underwater with divers. Hopefully a video will be made! It would be interesting also to see what the brake blades look like. I guess they might be zero pitched ears with similar weights to the propulsion ears.
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Given the size of the blades, it will be a very interesting job replacing the brake blades with the propulsion blades underwater with divers. Hopefully a video will be made! It would be interesting also to see what the brake blades look like. I guess they might be zero pitched ears with similar weights to the propulsion ears.

The 'brake blades' they are using is best described as 'similar' to the wheels on a hospital gurney, just MUCH BIGGER !

http://www.casterwheelsco.com/upload/middle/Threaded_Stem_With_Side_Brake_Caster_282_0_1300085730.jpg

Take the axle & brake assembly off the wheel in the image & increase in size to match the diameter of the 5 bladed prop in the review document.

As they have no blades at any pitch, they can spin happily up to say 150 - 200 rpm, going no where, doing nothing other than churning the water....
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Hmmmm...

Your comment sounds like 'common sense'.

However, WHEN have the procurement bods at Whitehall & the RN Chiefs of staff actually sat down & looked at what they want, what they need & what UK PLC can actually afford ??

THIS is where the common sense is needed & unfortunately the shipbuilder will be asked to design something (based on what they've been told to include), & that will take approx 4 -5 years to get to the point where the RN will say, I wish we had a 'clean sheet' to start again. T45 was a case in point when production started in 2001 & by late 2005, they publicly wished they had something else.

To tie in with other comments on the page (relating to size), T45 is 154m long / 18m at the beam, T26 is currently 148m long & 19m at the beam. Both ship designs are BIG in comparison to some of the previous vessel designs, but both are bursting at the seams & based on current operational demand, could do with being bigger.

T31 will allegedly be a little shorter & a little thinner, as well as being a little lighter (as it will be a GP version of T26, so LOTS of stuff will be removed...), so will it suffice for the task ??.

Rolling T26 / T31 together, their production run will allegedly end in 2038 !, assuming that UK PLC actually finds the cash.


& as I'm getting frustrated & angry, I'll end my comment here, no matter whether it makes sense or not !

SA :mad
The dumb thing is if they hadn't rolled C1 and C2 in together in the first place they could have given the less complex C2 priority instead of blowing money on OPVs while continuing to develop the full blown C1/ Type 26. The end result could actually have been, instead of the RN maybe eventually getting four OPVs, five up gunned stretched OPVs (the type31) and eight Type 26, they could have had maybe eight modular C2s and eight Type26.

The C2s could have been designed to use mission modules built around existing in service systems and refurbished equipment recycled from retiring ships, a sort of 27-30kt LCS. It could have had a base patrol frigate configuration, but designed to undertake Littoral ASW, expeditionary mine warfare, special forces support etc. through the use of containerised mission systems. Then after this build the fully sorted Type26 could have been built more easily and economically as the shipbuilders would still be up to speed having been continuously building for a couple of decades, through Type45, QECs, C2 etc. Maybe even build the new tankers locally too,.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I think the main issue is the delays with the Astute program have required that older Trafalgar class boats to remain in service. I believe several Astute boats are still under construction and Ambush was involved in a collision. Bad luck to a certain extent. Considering the success of Virginia program, the U.K. should seriously consider licensing the final design of the Columbia class for their SSBN or better yet, both nations should consider Virginias equipped with VPMs adapted for BMs.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
I think the main issue is the delays with the Astute program have required that older Trafalgar class boats to remain in service. I believe several Astute boats are still under construction and Ambush was involved in a collision. Bad luck to a certain extent. Considering the success of Virginia program, the U.K. should seriously consider licensing the final design of the Columbia class for their SSBN or better yet, both nations should consider Virginias equipped with VPMs adapted for BMs.
Steel is being cut on Successor right now so I think we can rule that out - design hasn't even been finalised on the Ohio replacement.

The long gap between the T boats and Astute was painful and it's been expensive but it's too late to buy in a US design and that wouldn't fix anything right now.
 
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