Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

htbrst

Active Member
It could even be argued we could have acquired more Skyhawk's and used them as LIFTs as Israel has done until very recently. Acquisition would have been cheaper but I'm not sure on through life costs, and then there is the fact the Hawks cockpit was specifically tailored to prepare pilots for the F/A-18, if not impossible, then likely prohibitively expensive to do on 60s vintage Skyhawk's.
Slightly wrong timing but NZ's Kahu upgrade would show that it was eminently possible without breaking the bank - the whole upgrade including rewinging and radar, HUD, RWR etc etc cost roughly $7 million NZD per airframe at the time - $140 million all up for the whole fleet

There is a recent presentation on youtube about the Skyhawk in RNZAF service - I vaguely recall it saying the avionics were in some aspects superior to the RAAF Hornets but I think that's a pretty long bow to draw.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5sFmyxQSro


If you had Skyhawks as LIFTs, you wouldn't have had to pay the RNZAF to keep the RAN on their toes from Nowra either :sniper

(and yes some of the details in the presentation about the F-16's make for depressing thoughts)
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
From what I have read, training for the F-35 will be largely simulator based so there will be no need for the mock-up fighter cockpits used by the RAAF Hawks.

In fact, the role of the training aircraft may need to be completely redefined.

Looking at the US T-X program it would seem that a much more capable aircraft than the Hawk may be needed. Norththrop Grumman in fact offered the Hawk ... but decided not to go ahead with it because of performance short comings.

It will be interesting to see the RAAF requirements for its next generation jet trainer.
The USAF T-X program RFI call for an aircraft that can exceed Mach 1 in level flight by a significant margin which the Hawk can't.
 

SpazSinbad

Active Member
Slightly wrong timing but NZ's Kahu upgrade would show that it was eminently possible without breaking the bank - the whole upgrade including rewinging and radar, HUD, RWR etc etc cost roughly $7 million NZD per airframe at the time - $140 million all up for the whole fleet

There is a recent presentation on youtube about the Skyhawk in RNZAF service - I vaguely recall it saying the avionics were in some aspects superior to the RAAF Hornets but I think that's a pretty long bow to draw....
Usually comment is made that KAHU upgrade made the RNZAF Skyhawk A-4K similar to an F-16 of that era. Some more interesting videos are the sales pitch & history:

RNZAF A-4 SkyHawk sales video.mp4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axy3Y8RN6FQ

A-4K Skyhawk: Project Kahu Begins (1987)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FtjXCFp-yE

Most F-35 users indicate 50% of training will be FMS Full Mission Simulator based with a desktop sim for initial procedures training. What that means for RAAF (apart from FMS) I guess they figure that out soon.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Most F-35 users indicate 50% of training will be FMS Full Mission Simulator based with a desktop sim for initial procedures training. What that means for RAAF (apart from FMS) I guess they figure that out soon.
you'd be banking that they won't be putting JSF glass c0ckpits into the LIF's

the dev and integration costs would be horrendous - the shift is towards sims as they are far more realistic than prev and costs benefits are easier to defend
 

south

Well-Known Member
Re the Hawks and combat role: never ever going to happen. It does not have the altitude, range, speed, weapons capability, EWSP, radar, networking, targeting pod, radios to be a modern combat aircraft.

Re what Volk said about Army/Navy wanting a more capable aircraft - may well be the case and the Hawk does a reasonable amount of stuff for the Army and Navy at present anyway - but it's primary role is and was always going to be training the next generation of pilots for ACG. The Hawk is already significantly more capable than the Macchi. I doubt whether the next step up (AMX / radar equipped Hawk etc) was ever seriously considered.

Supersonic trainers - IMHO a waste of time/money. The current/next gen of frontline fighters don't even notice going through the Speed of sound - so why bother spending the extra money for this capability in a trainer given you can't do in most overland airspace anyway?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Supersonic trainers - IMHO a waste of time/money. The current/next gen of frontline fighters don't even notice going through the Speed of sound - so why bother spending the extra money for this capability in a trainer given you can't do in most overland airspace anyway?
ack. there is a a subtle shift towards more capable and flexible platforms for training - but almost negligible interest by anyone in developing them (next gen LIF) anywhere as defacto tier 2 fighting platforms.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Re the Hawks and combat role: never ever going to happen. It does not have the altitude, range, speed, weapons capability, EWSP, radar, networking, targeting pod, radios to be a modern combat aircraft.

Re what Volk said about Army/Navy wanting a more capable aircraft - may well be the case and the Hawk does a reasonable amount of stuff for the Army and Navy at present anyway - but it's primary role is and was always going to be training the next generation of pilots for ACG. The Hawk is already significantly more capable than the Macchi. I doubt whether the next step up (AMX / radar equipped Hawk etc) was ever seriously considered.

Supersonic trainers - IMHO a waste of time/money. The current/next gen of frontline fighters don't even notice going through the Speed of sound - so why bother spending the extra money for this capability in a trainer given you can't do in most overland airspace anyway?
I believe what the army and navy were after was a sufficient number of suitable platforms to meet their training needs in relation to fleet requirements, CAS, JTAC etc.

Its been a while and I am only going off what I read and have been told, but if I recall correctly the issue was there were two schools of thought, even within the RAAF at the time. On was for an aircraft that could economically meet the RAAF LIFT requirement and nothing else, therefore allowing the RAAF to spend the least money on the smallest number of good enough aircraft leaving more money in the kitty for other higher priorities. The other was that the LIFT also should be able to replace and enhance the training and capability development that either wasn't being done, being done ineffectively by inappropriate platforms, or requiring the use of expensive leased capability, plus F-111 and F/A-18 flight hours. This is where sufficient numbers of a more capable LIFT would have been appropriate, and to a degree, what did happen with the Hawk 127 acquisition.

In this day and age I could see an enhanced capability being given more serious consideration as it could save money while better meeting the requirements of the ADF as a whole. I don't imagine we would ever look at deploying the capability to a combat zone, but then again if 4 Sqn had higher spec Hawks, two seater AMXs or Gripens with appropriate self defence systems available, I can't see why they couldn't have been deployed to Afghanistan in a fast FAC or CAS role.
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
In this day and age I could see an enhanced capability being given more serious consideration as it could save money while better meeting the requirements of the ADF as a whole. I don't imagine we would ever look at deploying the capability to a combat zone, but then again if 4 Sqn had higher spec Hawks, two seater AMXs or Gripens with appropriate self defence systems available, I can't see why they couldn't have been deployed to Afghanistan in a fast FAC or CAS role.
I'd actually suggest it's the opposite - the likelihood of more advanced trainer aircraft is reducing, not increasing. The threshold for what is a viable combat aircraft keeps going up, and therefore the utility of a 'trainer-plus' aircraft is going down. Even for training on Australia, the utility of an aircraft that doesn't have the advanced comms/EW etc capabilities of front line aircraft is very limited - if it can't talk to everyone, then it isn't doing much more than flying in circles burning up jet fuel.

It's the same as arming the OPVs. The threshold of a viable combat ship is going up as well, and therefore the utility of an armed OPV is reducing. It won't be able to do the constabulary work any better, and won't be survivable in an actual conflict, so why spend scarce resourcing in arming them?
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I'd actually suggest it's the opposite - the likelihood of more advanced trainer aircraft is reducing, not increasing. The threshold for what is a viable combat aircraft keeps going up, and therefore the utility of a 'trainer-plus' aircraft is going down. Even for training on Australia, the utility of an aircraft that doesn't have the advanced comms/EW etc capabilities of front line aircraft is very limited - if it can't talk to everyone, then it isn't doing much more than flying in circles burning up jet fuel.

It's the same as arming the OPVs. The threshold of a viable combat ship is going up as well, and therefore the utility of an armed OPV is reducing. It won't be able to do the constabulary work any better, and won't be survivable in an actual conflict, so why spend scarce resourcing in arming them?
Agreed.

There is a minimum level of integration and self defence capability required to make any sort of platform survivable in a modern conflict, this was the reason given for not deploying Australian Blackhawks to Afghanistan and the reason why the equipment that was sent received improvements and upgrades. This is why the 4Sqn PC9 FAC cadre would never have been considered for deployment either.

On the other hand, if 4 Sqn had combat spec aircraft, be they something like the Tucano's the USN were looking to deploy, Hawks with the appropriate systems, AMX or Gripens, then its an entirely different mater.

What it comes down to is cost and the requirements that need to be met, for example the PC21 is capable of taking over some of the tasks that were once conducted by the Hawk suggesting that an eventual Hawk replacement would be primarily an advanced combat trainer, fleet requirements, FFAC, and CAS training / demonstration / development type, i.e. the roles the PC21 can't do.

I also read something recently that F-16 Cs are being cascaded to training wings in preparation for the F-35. This is actually similar to what happened when the RAAF introduced the Mirage, the Sabre became the combat tactics trainer. The Wingeel was the basic / intro trainer and the Macchi the intermediate, with CAC CA31, Jaguar, or possibly F-5, planned as a combat capable advanced trainer to replace the Sabre. The combat capable part is also to provide a more capable and realistic training experience to not just the developing pilots but the ADF elements they support or go up against in training.

I seriously wonder if once the F-35 enters service if we will see the Legacy Bugs and SHs conducting more advanced training and support missions that the Hawk is not up to. If this happens will the RAAF perhaps form an F/A-18F OCU/Advanced weapons squadron in addition to 1 and 6 sqns? This would be very expensive but likely necessary, and if you had what were still effective combat aircraft available, would you avoid using them as such because they had been retitled trainers? Also, when it comes to replacement time, would they look at a long term replacement in that role with something that could also replace the Hawk LIFT capability, probably based on whatever the USAF ends up doing.

The OPV response probably better belongs elsewhere but I would point out that, as much as the RN wants a cheaper Type26 that can be upgraded when required, the options being considered for the RNs Type31 GP frigate are predominantly upspec'd OPVs. Also the OPVs the ADF are looking at now are nothing compared to the OPC 81m Corvette that was meant to replace the Fremantle's (it basically had the combat power of an ANZAC in a smaller cheaper to operate package designed for regional ops), or the OCV originally intended to replace the ACPBs, MCMVs and Hydrographic fleets, which was basically a smaller, slower LCS.

I suppose another analogy is why is the Army procuring Hawkie? Surely they would be better off using armoured Gwagens or ASLAVs? I know the answer, cost, capability and suitability, Gwagen lacks the required capability while ASLAV / Boxer / Patria are over kill.
 
Last edited:

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
It's the same as arming the OPVs. The threshold of a viable combat ship is going up as well, and therefore the utility of an armed OPV is reducing. It won't be able to do the constabulary work any better, and won't be survivable in an actual conflict, so why spend scarce resourcing in arming them?
the only counter to your post, and I agree in principle, is that a better armed OPV, say with a 76mm and a short range SSM would be a very useful asset in counter insurgency roles in our immediate vicinity, a role such as those undertaken by the Ton class during the Malayan conflict.
East Timor, PNG, Vanuatu and the Solomons are all possible areas where the deployment of such an armed OPV ( with air) would would be equally as useful as a frigate and far less intimidating.
 

SpazSinbad

Active Member
How USMC trained new pilots fresh from Goshawk advanced training to the F-35B. Looks like it is easy with all the F-35 simulators and F-35B aircraft available for sprogs.

VMFAT-501 initial ascension pilots to finish training on F-35B Lightning II 09 Feb 2017
"...“We started in a real crawl, walk, run style,” said Reddy. “We started off with classroom instruction and a lot of simulator hours. We had to learn all of the systems that make up the aircraft and how to use and troubleshoot them. We did not start training in the F-35 until we completed between 30 to 40 hours in the simulator. It was around four months until we got into the F-35. The first thing we did in the F-35 was starting it up and taxying around the flight line, to get a feel for the aircraft. It was a lot like driving a car for the first time in a parking lot.”

After learning the simulations and the different parts of the aircraft the two category one pilots were ready to fly for the first time. Reddy and Zehrung did not begin flying until 11 weeks after the beginning of training...."
https://www.dvidshub.net/news/22308...ion-pilots-finish-training-f-35b-lightning-ii
_________________________

USAF are doing it for themselves also (with different lead in aircraft): 08 Feb 2017

F-35’s first B-course takes flight

http://www.luke.af.mil/News/Article...077260/f-35s-first-b-course-takes-flight.aspx
 
Last edited:

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
As I understand it the 56th Fighter Wing incorporates the 54th Fighter Group and is the USAFs active service F-16 training wing. I recall reading that they were using F-16C and D models as LIFTs for the F-35A.
 

SpazSinbad

Active Member
As I understand it the 56th Fighter Wing incorporates the 54th Fighter Group and is the USAFs active service F-16 training wing. I recall reading that they were using F-16C and D models as LIFTs for the F-35A.
You would have read that a few years ago now when F-35A USAF training was just starting [when also there were few F-35As to train with]. First it was 'train the trainers', then already experienced pilots (from a mega-USAF mix) now it is the B or Basic training of new pilots having just completed their initial training. Sadly the USAF have not made it clear on what air machines these 'B' pilots have graduated - so we can assume - like any other basic fighter pilot USAF training pipeline [which may be what you describe however that is not clear to me in the USAF training environment today] except these chaps now go to the F-35A instead of the F-15, F-22 or F-16 communities.

The USN/USMC have made it clear that the first USMC F-35B 'basic' pilot has come from the USN/USMC T-45C Advanced Fighter Training pipeline. So I'll imagine the RAAF will follow a similar path until they tell me otherwise. We can imagine that now the 'train the trainers (3)' has been in progress with those trainers gaining experience at Luke AFB. One is a test pilot for work at Woomera and elsewhere on return to Oz later. More RAAF experienced pilots will be trained at Luke AFB until RAAF F-35A training returns to Oz in 2021.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
How USMC trained new pilots fresh from Goshawk advanced training to the F-35B. Looks like it is easy with all the F-35 simulators and F-35B aircraft available for sprogs.

VMFAT-501 initial ascension pilots to finish training on F-35B Lightning II 09 Feb 2017

https://www.dvidshub.net/news/22308...ion-pilots-finish-training-f-35b-lightning-ii
_________________________

USAF are doing it for themselves also (with different lead in aircraft): 08 Feb 2017

F-35’s first B-course takes flight

F-35’s first B-course takes flight > Luke Air Force Base > Article Display
You would have read that a few years ago now when F-35A USAF training was just starting [when also there were few F-35As to train with]. First it was 'train the trainers', then already experienced pilots (from a mega-USAF mix) now it is the B or Basic training of new pilots having just completed their initial training. Sadly the USAF have not made it clear on what air machines these 'B' pilots have graduated - so we can assume - like any other basic fighter pilot USAF training pipeline [which may be what you describe however that is not clear to me in the USAF training environment today] except these chaps now go to the F-35A instead of the F-15, F-22 or F-16 communities.

The USN/USMC have made it clear that the first USMC F-35B 'basic' pilot has come from the USN/USMC T-45C Advanced Fighter Training pipeline. So I'll imagine the RAAF will follow a similar path until they tell me otherwise. We can imagine that now the 'train the trainers (3)' has been in progress with those trainers gaining experience at Luke AFB. One is a test pilot for work at Woomera and elsewhere on return to Oz later. More RAAF experienced pilots will be trained at Luke AFB until RAAF F-35A training returns to Oz in 2021.
It was only a couple of weeks ago but cant remember where precisely. The story indicated that F-16C and D were cascading to the training role to support the F-35.
 

SpazSinbad

Active Member
It was only a couple of weeks ago but cant remember where precisely. The story indicated that F-16C and D were cascading to the training role to support the F-35.
Yes I recall that story but did not retain the info. I have not followed your reference to "...56th Fighter Wing incorporates the 54th Fighter Group and is the USAFs active service F-16 training wing..." and see that as training new F-16 pilots but again I do not claim to know the exact details of the new USAF F-35A pilot training regime.

Anyway what interests me is the USN/USMC model (with only a USMC example AFAIK) going from T-45C to F-35(B) for a new pilot. The RAAF will likely emulate Hawk to F-35A for new pilots whenever they start training them also but only my guess at moment. New pilots take in info at a rapid rate, experienced pilots have to UNlearn from their previous aircraft and then learn the new F-35 way of doing things. Several 'experienced' pilots (some also on 5th Gen) have made this clear. Lt.Col. Berke USMC has talked about this a lot. Generals expect the sprogs to really innovate with the F-35 because they do not carry 4th Gen baggage. I guess we will see.

47 years ago I jumped from the Vampire to an A4G Skyhawk. WOW - but also I did that in a TA4G trainer for a few initial rides. It seems to me that the FMS will replace the 'trainer' aircraft very well. Everyone has been very positive about their F-35 training so far for lots of reasons, with the FMS replicating the real aircraft nicely.
 
Last edited:

John Newman

The Bunker Group
There are eight RAAF F-35s in the LRIP batch for completion in 2018+. Whether they come straight here or not is unknown to me

oldsig
Just saw you post from earlier last week, yes there is a schedule/plan of when the RAAF's F-35A's will start arriving here in Oz (apart from the 'quick' visit of the two for the airshow).

Firstly, this is the delivery schedule by LM to RAAF:
* 2 – (2014) – LRIP 6 already delivered
* 8 – (2018) – LRIP 10
* 8 – (2019)
* 15 – (2020)
* 15 – (2021)
* 15 – (2022)
* 9 – (2023)

From what I have seen published, when the eight aircraft from LRIP 10 are delivered by LM during 2018, two will arrive here for testing and evaluation in 2018.

The remaining six from LRIP 10 will join the initial two from LRIP 6, at Luke AFB for training.

As for when the rest begin to start arriving in Australia, I've seen either starting in 2019 or during 2020. By end of 2019, according to the delivery schedule above, 18 airframes should be in RAAF possession.

Anyway, not long now!!!
 

rossfrb_1

Member
archival RAAF aerobatics footage query

Hi all
As a kid in the 70s I can remember TV stations shutting down their transmission around midnight every night and resuming the next morning.

ABC TV of the time would prelude their nightly transmission shutdown with one of several stock clips lasting some minutes.

One of these was an aerobatic display - my memory tells me of Mirages. However wiki/google suggest the RAAF Roulettes never used Mirages so must have been Macchis (did any other RAAF squadron do aerobatics in the 70s?).

Google and youtube haven't helped and I have approached the current ABC TV with no luck.
So throwing it out their to anyone.
Referencing an online site with the footage would be ideal.
Failing that any details on who, what, when.....
Regards
rb
 

SpazSinbad

Active Member
Google finds this one for me first:
RAAF Roulettes with Macchi jets on Australia Day 1981
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRk5dc818HU

RAAF Roulette Jet's Down (1988) (Macchi 1&4 collide)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ae9YnDuOPOI

Vintage RAAF air display 1979 (RAAF Edinburgh includes Macchi Roulettes)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Gk2XsIy1V4

40 years of Roulettes History from formation in 1970 with Macchi MB326H:
http://www.defence.gov.au/Publications/NewsPapers/Raaf/editions/5216/5216.pdf (6.3Mb)

2013 story CFS (origin): http://www.defence.gov.au/Publications/NewsPapers/Raaf/editions/5505/5505.pdf (8.8Mb)
___________________________

RAAF Miracles (Mirage IIIO) had an Aero Team 'DELTAS' in early 1970s - a pilot course mate Alf Allen was the junior member in 1969-70. Saw him at RAAF Richmond Airshow 1970.

ADF-serials.com 'used to' have info on RAAF Aero Teams but it cannot be found quickly for the moment - I'll keep looking.....

Roulette History: https://www.airforce.gov.au/Interac...Teams-/?RAAF-SlJnQQxkUMYjnMnApQ/cUAVgLP1nGEC+

"...The Roulettes have had three accidents over the years:
In 1983, two Macchis collided during practice near Sale and both pilots were killed;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roulettes
In 1988, a mid-air collision saw Roulette 4 eject safely and Roulette 1 perform a gear-up landing; and... "
Photo History: https://www.exploroz.com/forum/101551/sunday-history-photo--vic

Another story about MACCHI MB326H & Roulettes:
https://airshowinfo.hu/hirek/en/item/147-roulettes-macchi-into-the-sky-again.html

DELTA Photo attached names: "L to r: Chris Mirrow, Alf Allen, Hugh Collits, Bruce Grayson, Bill Simmonds, John Archer, Dave Robson, Nick Ford" info from:
http://no77.squadronassociation.org/docPDF/77_Squadron_Deltas_-_Bill_Simmonds.pdf (2.7Mb)
 
Last edited:
Top