Royal New Zealand Air Force

[swerve]

am I on another planet?

all this talk about japanese interoperability ignores the well known reality that there isn't

has no one been paying attention to RIMPAC for the last 10 years?

For those of us who are not well-informed on this, can you elucidate?

I've always assumed that since Japan's defence is tied to the USA, there are substantial US air & naval assets in Japan, & Japan uses many US weapons & systems, that there'd be a reasonable degree of interoperability. Are you saying that's a mistaken assumption?

 

[STURM]

And what about South Korea? I would assume after decades having a strategic defence relationship with the U.S. that the South Korea military has no issues when it comes to interoperability and joint operations with the U.S. military.

 

[gf0012-aust]

For those of us who are not well-informed on this, can you elucidate?

I've always assumed that since Japan's defence is tied to the USA, there are substantial US air & naval assets in Japan, & Japan uses many US weapons & systems, that there'd be a reasonable degree of interoperability. Are you saying that's a mistaken assumption?

Japan has a degree of interoperability - but identical systems on "other" friendly nations assets can't communicate at the same level.

they're gated systems

 

[gf0012-aust]

And what about South Korea? I would assume after decades having a strategic defence relationship with the U.S. that the South Korea military has no issues when it comes to interoperability and joint operations with the U.S. military.

the earlier discussion was around an assumption that as Japan can comm with the US then acquiring one of their platforms would mean the difficulty of integrating japanese systems into a friendly network wouldn't be a problem

in essence anything can be integrated, but the notion that its a walk in the park and of less consideration to integrate japanese systems into a broader coalition environment just isn't the reality

RIMPAC is a 3 way comms event wrt Japan, some of that is around political constraints - quite a bit is due to electronic gates

 

[t68]

the earlier discussion was around an assumption that as Japan can comm with the US then acquiring one of their platforms would mean the difficulty of integrating japanese systems into a friendly network wouldn't be a problem

in essence anything can be integrated, but the notion that its a walk in the park and of less consideration to integrate japanese systems into a broader coalition environment just isn't the reality

RIMPAC is a 3 way comms event wrt Japan, some of that is around political constraints - quite a bit is due to electronic gates

That gives a better overall picture where te Japanese are at. As you have alluded to in the past on the amount of mobey it takes to put forward a proposal for consideration the Japanese must be confident it cam meet the requirments for NZ.

I havnt seen anything on the UK from an interoperability constraints to why the P8 was favoured over the Japanese offering, but if yor saying the gates are closed it would indicate a degree of difficulty that can be eliminated from the project.

 

[gf0012-aust]

That gives a better overall picture where te Japanese are at. As you have alluded to in the past on the amount of mobey it takes to put forward a proposal for consideration the Japanese must be confident it cam meet the requirments for NZ.

I havnt seen anything on the UK from an interoperability constraints to why the P8 was favoured over the Japanese offering, but if yor saying the gates are closed it would indicate a degree of difficulty that can be eliminated from the project.

gates are electronic, so its an integration and tech issue

the UK decision would be much like ours - there are a whole pile of other vectors which make selecting US kit far more preferable.

acquisition teams have to look at the broader picture - its never just about the capability of the platform under review. there is a requirement to consider other capability vectors in the assessment matrix etc....

 

[Rob c]

One thing we have to remember is that while the public documents in regard to the FASC RFI are broad based, the confidential documents are not and all things including system standards and the ability that the RNZAF consider necessary to inter operate with other allies will be covered so respondents would have to show that their offering could achieve what was required. There will be a lot of communication between the respondents and the MOD to ensure all the i's are dotted and the tee's are crossed in this regard. It can be assumed that the respondents have achieved, or will achieve, the necessary standards, if they have spent the money and taken the effort to respond

 

[ngatimozart]

One thing we have to remember is that while the public documents in regard to the FASC RFI are broad based, the confidential documents are not and all things including system standards and the ability that the RNZAF consider necessary to inter operate with other allies will be covered so respondents would have to show that their offering could achieve what was required. There will be a lot of communication between the respondents and the MOD to ensure all the i's are dotted and the tee's are crossed in this regard. It can be assumed that the respondents have achieved, or will achieve, the necessary standards, if they have spent the money and taken the effort to respond

The Mods and Def Pros commenting on this a very aware of that fact, especially GF and Mr C.

 

[Rob c]

The Mods and Def Pros commenting on this a very aware of that fact, especially GF and Mr C.

Yep, but some others may not be, or some may have forgotten, While it is a long time ago, I was involved in this sort of thing in a minor way, in my time at D Eng and know the lengths that these documents use go to better than most. While the process has much changed and refined since my time, I would expect that the detail would have significantly increased as this has been the ongoing trend.

 

[ngatimozart]

Yep, but some others may not be, or some may have forgotten, While it is a long time ago, I was involved in this sort of thing in a minor way, in my time at D Eng and know the lengths that these documents use go to better than most. While the process has much changed and refined since my time, I would expect that the detail would have significantly increased as this has been the ongoing trend.

Fair enough, point taken. The detail in the RFI's and RFTs has increased markedly in the last 6 - 12 months as has updates to the requests whilst they are still current. This is a very good aspect and the MOD and NZDF appear to be talking to, listening to and working with industry more as they build the requirement, which I believe gives them a greater understanding of what is available across the board and they appear to be structure their requests more with that in closer context.

 

[Rob c]

Fair enough, point taken. The detail in the RFI's and RFTs has increased markedly in the last 6 - 12 months as has updates to the requests whilst they are still current. This is a very good aspect and the MOD and NZDF appear to be talking to, listening to and working with industry more as they build the requirement, which I believe gives them a greater understanding of what is available across the board and they appear to be structure their requests more with that in closer context.

Yep, hopefully the last few posts by all, have given those who had not been aware of the complexity of what was going on a better understanding of the process. When I was at D Eng it took a hell of a lot longer as our only electronic communication was the telephone and most queries to manufactures were by letter. Progress has certainly made this a lot quicker and more efficient.

 

[ngatimozart]

The RNZAF is deploying a P-3K2 Orion to the Middle East for 12 months to support the US-led Combined Maritime Forces (CMF) against piracy and people and drug trafficking. The first rotation of personnel left last night and the Orion follows later this week.

 

[Gibbo]

The RNZAF is deploying a P-3K2 Orion to the Middle East for 12 months to support the US-led Combined Maritime Forces (CMF) against piracy and people and drug trafficking. The first rotation of personnel left last night and the Orion follows later this week.

Good news... playing our part in a meaningful way and fantastic way for personnel to grow their skills and build relationships.

Whilst on the MPA topic - I hadn't noticed this on the GETS tender site until now but the ACTC lease planned to be taken up later this year now clearly states that this is the likely solution for short-range MPA. No great surprise but first time I've seen an acknowledgement 'from the horses mouth'.
https://www.gets.govt.nz/MD/ExternalTenderDetails.htm?id=18186977

 

[ngatimozart]

Good news... playing our part in a meaningful way and fantastic way for personnel to grow their skills and build relationships.

Whilst on the MPA topic - I hadn't noticed this on the GETS tender site until now but the ACTC lease planned to be taken up later this year now clearly states that this is the likely solution for short-range MPA. No great surprise but first time I've seen an acknowledgement 'from the horses mouth'.
https://www.gets.govt.nz/MD/ExternalTenderDetails.htm?id=18186977

Yep, I posted on it when it came out. The aircraft is the Kingair series in the B200 - B350 range with each submitter to determine the aircraft variant in its submission. The contract is for 7 years and it is for a fixed sum each year which was stipulated in the RFT. The radar etc., for the MPA side will be NZG furnished and are not included as part of the contract.

 

[ngatimozart]

The latest issue of Asia Pacific Defence Review is out and it has an article on the SH-2G(I) Seasprites in NZ service and another on the FAMC.

 

[kiwipatriot69]

Why is it onlya seven yr lease for short range Mpa, I would imagine a permanent solution for within the country would be in order?

 

[Gibbo]

Why is it onlya seven yr lease for short range Mpa, I would imagine a permanent solution for within the country would be in order?

My theory... the lease runs to 2025 which more or less coincides with P3K2 replacement reaching full intro to service, which gives time for a proper long-term solution for SR-MPA to be determined. Makes sense given at this point the need is there but not urgent, and the full MPA solution is unknown, which will to an extent drive the scope of a SR-MPA solution.

 

[ngatimozart]

My theory... the lease runs to 2025 which more or less coincides with P3K2 replacement reaching full intro to service, which gives time for a proper long-term solution for SR-MPA to be determined. Makes sense given at this point the need is there but not urgent, and the full MPA solution is unknown, which will to an extent drive the scope of a SR-MPA solution.

Give that man a chocolate fish.

The SR-MPA part of the ACTC is a secondary consideration with the training of Air Warfare Operators / Officers and aircrew being the primary mission.

 

[kiwipatriot69]

What numbers of aircraft would be needed then for short range MPA? Would it make much of a dent in the budget?

 

[Novascotiaboy]

With the decision by OZ to buy the Schiebel S100 camcopter this week has there been any movement by the RNZAF to begin the process of trialing RPAS to meet the needs of the Littoral vessel and other operations?

What is this groups views on how a Schiebel type or Scan Eagle type RPAS's can best be utilized to support Defence Force operations?