Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
To be fair WA is in a prime position to make far more from the Navy then any other state considering our main naval base is located there, The build is only a fraction of the life time costs and said build project's are generally spread out Australia wide. WA need's to focus less on trying to build everything and more on working with industry, federal government and the Navy in delivering and sustaining permanantly a capability to maintain and upgrade the ships. There is as much money and job's in those tasks then production.

WA pollies are simply either too short sighted or extremely greedy wanting both production, sustainment and upgrade work done there....
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
To be fair WA is in a prime position to make far more from the Navy then any other state considering our main naval base is located there, The build is only a fraction of the life time costs and said build project's are generally spread out Australia wide. WA need's to focus less on trying to build everything and more on working with industry, federal government and the Navy in delivering and sustaining permanantly a capability to maintain and upgrade the ships. There is as much money and job's in those tasks then production.

WA pollies are simply either too short sighted or extremely greedy wanting both production, sustainment and upgrade work done there....
yep, sexy money is only on new builds and the photo ops - the real money is in sustainment - and its a long drip feed of money
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
True, We did turn away from a cost sharing deal which would have given us a much larger force in a deal with cost's split between the UK, Australia and NZ 75%, 20% and 5%.

We started out great as a young nation with our armed forces especially with the Navy but after WWI and with the great depression it fell apart quickly and was not built up any where near fast enough.
Well actually the RAN was formed against the wishes of the British who wanted Australia to fund a RN Squadron in Australia and when it was formed it was actually planned to be much larger and more capable than it ever ended up being. However over the years a number of senior RN officers who saw the advantages of an independent RAN and contributed to planning what was required.

The main threat post Federation was the German East Asia Squadron with Japan also being a major concern. The original plan was six fleet units each built around an Armoured Cruiser (the predecessor to the Battlecruiser), three fleet cruisers, three submarines, six destroyers and a tender. There was to have been an approximate 25% allowance in numbers to ensure the Fleet Units always had the ships they needed, i.e. there were to have been a total of eight Armoured Cruisers to cover refits etc. This detailed plan covered not just the ships required but the required bases, maintenance and training facilities. There was also a detailed schedule leading out to the 1930s of how the capability would be ramped up.

By the time the first Fleet Unit was formed the armoured cruiser had been replaced by a battle cruiser, while the cruisers, destroyers and submarines had all grown significantly in size, crew requirements, capability and cost, derailing the original plan. Not all bad as this single Fleet Unit (there were I believe plans for two more) was sufficient to convince Von Spee that he couldn't survive, let alone be effective in the region, leading to him fleeing and the destruction of his Squadron at the Battle of the Falkland Islands by a RN force not to different to Australia's Fleet at the time. It was only after the removal of this threat that the Australian Fleet was transferred to the operational control of the RN for the duration.

Post war recommendations, by Jellicoe no less, included a second Fleet Unit, the acquisition of aircraft carriers operating fighters and torpedo bombers, the retention of existing and acquisition of additional light cruisers for patrol and station duty around the Australian coast and territories, as well as the formation of land based patrol and torpedo bomber, as well as fighter (to defend the fleet bases) squadrons. This of course was ignored and the Australian Government of the day solicited a dissenting view from the Admiralty and British government that led to the actual between wars structure of a handful of cruisers, a squadron of destroyers and one of submarines (this didn't last long) as well as the virtually useless seaplane carrier HMAS Albatross (procured to retain ship building skills following the decision to build the new cruisers in the UK, strange actually as it cost more than the premium to build the cruisers locally would have and resulted in the decay of the local industry making building new cruisers locally several years later impossible).

Pre WWII attempts were made to structurally separate the RAN from the RN but these were opposed by the Australian Government who didn't seem to have faith in their own people (similar happened with the RAAF where senior British officers were brought in). At the start of the war it was the Australian Government that transferred the Fleet to RN control and at the time of Japans entry into the war they were still fully integrated with the RN and could not easily be reassigned. Who wants to bet that had the notorious Anglophile Menzies still been PM he wouldn't even have asked for the fleet back ;)

Its easy to blame the Brits, and some of them were sods, but a lot of it was our own fault maybe due to cultural cringe, but there was also the political factor where a lot of our pollies (Torries included) did not hold the Australian forces (especially their leadership) in very high regard. Actually not that different to how the political types and the brainless masses treat our defence industry today, they automatically assume everyone, everywhere else is better than the locals, no matter the evidence to contrary.
 
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Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Come'on gf, Volk, what's wrong with giving some work to WA? Here in WA, work opportunities are drying up since the end of the mining boom. Besides, Austal makes good looking boats. Building OPVs will be perfect for them. Techport will still get the Future Frigates and Shortfin.
No problem whatsoever with work going to WA but like gf said the issue is when they politically undermine existing capability in other states with no regard for the actual needs of the ADF or retention of strategic capabilities. Also, as hard as I try to keep an open mind, Austal always manages to demonstrate that, no matter how low my opinion of them and their capabilities, they are actually worse than I ever suspected. IMO if an external expert ever did a review of their operations, i.e. similar to the Coles or Winter reports on ASC for example, they would be crucified. The reason their designs have issues is they literally don't know what they don't know and are too arrogant to listen when experts try to help them.

Rather then giving work to Austal I would rather it go to Forgacs, they at least know how to build ships. Also instead of this frigates here, OPVs there idea I would rather a model where each yard specialises on certain types of blocks for destroyers, frigates, OPV/OCV/whatever, amphibs and auxillaries; i.e. superstructure blocks with combat system integration, keel blocks, engineering spaces etc. This base load of work could potentially keep three or four yards busy and competent bashing steel, but also demonstrate which yard deserves to win the competitive tenders for the remaining general blocks as well as consolidation, final outfit and integration, activation, test and trials.

I am not anti WA per-say rather I am against reinventing the wheel for purely political (or more to the point pork) reasons. For example I firmly believe the Hawke government decision to shut Cockatoo was stupid, but then having done so and spending so much to get Williamstown up to speed, staving them of work was simply criminal. The move by the WA mafia to kill ASC and transfer building of all major fleet units overseas, so WA could corner all work on minor vessels as well as the lions share of sustainment works was little short of treasonous; it was nothing more than screwing the defence of the nation to get the biggest share of the resulting much smaller pie for themselves.

In my ideal world the Silver Bodgie would have let Cockatoo build the second required Durance (Success) AOR, this build would have gone much quicker because the design data had been sorted by this point (bloke on that build told me all data was delivered in French without units being specified despite there being a mix of metric, imperial and possibly (my faulty memory not theirs) US imp in it. This means they would still have open to refit the O boats and provide a smoother transition to the Collins and possibly even life extend a couple to permit a more sensible progression of the replacement program. A second Durance means no Westralia, and no Sirius and possibly no Bill and Ben with the logical way forward being to build the required capability locally, i.e. an Ocean type LPH. Cockatoo could even have been expanded to build the Collins Class instead of the new yard in Adelaide and could have built blocks for the AFP (Australian Frigate Project / Melbourne and Newcastle) and the ANZACs.

Williamstown could still have been upgraded and build the last pair of FFGs and then gone onto the ANZACs but Cockatoo could have been given the contract to replace the Perth Class DDGs in a simple one for one build of Flight I or IIA Arleigh Burkes, while Williamstown completed the ANZACs and moved onto the planned OPC/corvette build followed by a shared build of the eventual FFG replacements, the AOR replacements and additional, larger amphibs. No ASC, no Armidale class "coke cans" (RAN nickname for them) but potentially block and systems work around the country as Eglo in Adelaide had been building survey motor launches and blocks for the FFGs. Instead we killed and rebuilt the industry twice and severely injured it a third time, wasting hundreds of millions, perhaps billions that would have been better spent on capability and retaining the RANs engineering capability.

Once the RAN had the gear they needed for far less than it ended up costing because of political BS their would have been a stack of money saved that could have gone on doing things smarter in the other services, for example a new build IFV instead of an upgraded M-113, or maybe even upgraded surplus Marders from Germany, SPGs, more helicopters, new LCHs (or something better, Frank Besson class maybe). Possibly with extra cash the Army could have justified buying Apache over Tiger and ended up saving money.

Getting into the realms of fantasy now but when you look at what could have been achieved with the same budget, had certain mistakes, that were obviously mistakes at the time, not been made, you can see why some of us get so annoyed when pollies start pork barrelling. We have seen the money that was wasted because of stupid decisions and letting existing capabilities die, or even killing them deliberately to make a couple of electorates somewhere happy, and get pissed when we see it happening again.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
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Come'on gf, Volk, what's wrong with giving some work to WA? Here in WA, work opportunities are drying up since the end of the mining boom. Besides, Austal makes good looking boats. Building OPVs will be perfect for them. Techport will still get the Future Frigates and Shortfin.
Looks are not a defining feature for the effectiveness of a vessel and to be honest the Armadale is a pretty ugly vessel. Australia make some impressive HSC but it does not make them a shoe in for the OPV
 

rockitten

Member
Its easy to blame the Brits, and some of them were sods, but a lot of it was our own fault maybe due to cultural cringe, but there was also the political factor where a lot of our pollies (Torries included) did not hold the Australian forces (especially their leadership) in very high regard. Actually not that different to how the political types and the brainless masses treat our defence industry today, they automatically assume everyone, everywhere else is better than the locals, no matter the evidence to contrary.
I basically agree with what you said. However, to be fair to the Pom though, during the treaty era, Aussie ships (and so to the kiwis) are count as British ship and so the more Aussie ship mean less ship in RN. If my memory serve me correctly, that's why our battlecruiser got scuttled.

At that time, Singapore was consider the Gibraltar of the east, Australia was consider a safe back water and RN had a global commitment. So it is obvious who would got more cuts. Not to mention the great recession soon afterwards. And to be fair, the RN's "protection" did worked during WWI. On 1938, when the chinese and Japanese was in a total war, Torpedo bombers from HMS Eagle scared the shit out of the Japanese blockade fleet off canton by making mock attacks to them. Had the French didn't surrender in just 6 weeks or at least, the Marine nationale kept fighting alongside RN, the Pom won't got so mired in MTO and opened a chance for the Japanese, the Pacific war may never happened.

Getting into the realms of fantasy now but when you look at what could have been achieved with the same budget, had certain mistakes, that were obviously mistakes at the time, not been made, you can see why some of us get so annoyed when pollies start pork barrelling. We have seen the money that was wasted because of stupid decisions and letting existing capabilities die, or even killing them deliberately to make a couple of electorates somewhere happy, and get pissed when we see it happening again.
Totally agree. From my point of view, there is only 2 hub of excellence in Australia that is world-class competitive, the Sydney-Newcastle corridor and the Melbourne-Geelong region (no offend to anyone outside NSW and Vic, I am from Perth and been working in Qld and SA for years). If Australia industry/manufacturing and R&D wants to remains competitive, we should concentrate our resources in those 2 places and the rest of our nation backing them up with resources and man-power.

But that's totally political incorrect in Australian politics, especially for the regional electorates.
 
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Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Well actually as a sovereign nation we were not required to adhere to the Washington treaty and in actually fact Australia could not only have been retained she could have been upgraded as she was no longer considered a battlecruiser and was more equivalent to an armoured cruiser than the later standard for battlecruisers. She was scuttled because the government didn't want to pay to keep her and couldn't afford to replace her.

A Loss More Symbolic Than Material? | Royal Australian Navy

Also during WWI it was Britain's treaty with Japan and our own naval forces that guaranteed our security, not the RN. The Germans actually regarded HMAS Australia as more capable than their entire East Asia Squadron on its own and were desperate to avoid being engaged by her. Ironically it was her sisters / half sisters that destroyed the Germans as they fled the Pacific perhaps proving they were right, their armoured cruisers and light cruisers were no match for battle cruisers.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Well actually as a sovereign nation we were not required to adhere to the Washington treaty and in actually fact Australia could not only have been retained she could have been upgraded as she was no longer considered a battlecruiser and was more equivalent to an armoured cruiser than the later standard for battlecruisers. She was scuttled because the government didn't want to pay to keep her and couldn't afford to replace her.

A Loss More Symbolic Than Material? | Royal Australian Navy

Also during WWI it was Britain's treaty with Japan and our own naval forces that guaranteed our security, not the RN. The Germans actually regarded HMAS Australia as more capable than their entire East Asia Squadron on its own and were desperate to avoid being engaged by her. Ironically it was her sisters / half sisters that destroyed the Germans as they fled the Pacific perhaps proving they were right, their armoured cruisers and light cruisers were no match for battle cruisers.
Bang on. Even the 12" guns on the Australia were being phased out so we would have been maintaining an orphan ..... a coal fired one at that.

Sad but I suspect her fate was sealed even without the Washington treaty ..... it would have taken longer. New book our on Australia II by Mike Carlton goes into this in some detail. I have only just started on the book and I am not convinced he is in the same league as Paul Ham or others
 
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pussertas

Active Member
Italian FREMM Frigate

The Italians are providing their version of the FREMM Frigate for inspection in Adelaide.

Is there any reason why officers of both the RCN & the RNZN could not be invited to participate?

A few CPO should be included in the inspection. After all the lower deck will operate most of the systems.

It it's "too late' to organise visits by RCN & RNZN personal could not their Defense Attaches come down from the rarefied Canberra air & undertake inspections.
:duel
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The Italians are providing their version of the FREMM Frigate for inspection in Adelaide.

Is there any reason why officers of both the RCN & the RNZN could not be invited to participate?

A few CPO should be included in the inspection. After all the lower deck will operate most of the systems.

It it's "too late' to organise visits by RCN & RNZN personal could not their Defense Attaches come down from the rarefied Canberra air & undertake inspections.
:duel
mil attaches or liaison officers tend to get invited as a matter of course - especially amongst principle partners and almost always when the pennant owner knows that the MLO's country is entering a procurement process... :)

As a matter of course, in other assessment events I've invited reps from different shops/entities to have a look at gear thats been "specially" bought in as it spreads the love and enables others to contribute even if in passing
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The Italians are providing their version of the FREMM Frigate for inspection in Adelaide.

Is there any reason why officers of both the RCN & the RNZN could not be invited to participate?

A few CPO should be included in the inspection. After all the lower deck will operate most of the systems.

It it's "too late' to organise visits by RCN & RNZN personal could not their Defense Attaches come down from the rarefied Canberra air & undertake inspections.
:duel
Her next stop is FBE as I understand it. And yes, senior sailors are being invited to have a look over her. Whether NZers want to come is probably a matter for them, I'm sure the Italians would welcome them.

From the RCN persepctive, my understanding is that they are interested in the French version of the FREMM (logical I suppose) and my Canadian contacts suggest their DoD has already been over them fairly carefully.

FREMM stands for "Frégate européenne multi-mission" or the Italian equivilant - European Multi Mission Frigate in other words.
 

Milne Bay

Active Member
Her next stop is FBE as I understand it. And yes, senior sailors are being invited to have a look over her. Whether NZers want to come is probably a matter for them, I'm sure the Italians would welcome them.

From the RCN persepctive, my understanding is that they are interested in the French version of the FREMM (logical I suppose) and my Canadian contacts suggest their DoD has already been over them fairly carefully.

FREMM stands for "Frégate européenne multi-mission" or the Italian equivilant - European Multi Mission Frigate in other words.
There was a specific reason that the Italian FREMM and not the French was shortlisted, and from memory it was a significant difference.
Sadly my grey cells cannot recall what that important (and significant for the RAN) difference was
MB
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
There was a specific reason that the Italian FREMM and not the French was shortlisted, and from memory it was a significant difference.
Sadly my grey cells cannot recall what that important (and significant for the RAN) difference was
MB
The link gives a very good comparison between the two ships and I probably think the RAN made its choice on a number of the differences ranging from propulsion, ease of changing the mast configuration to CEA radars to the space given over to the VLS. As the article points out, they are very different ships with possibly only 25% commonality. Don't be misled by the ref to T26 in the title.

UK Armed Forces Commentary: The Type 26 and the modern european frigates
 

Milne Bay

Active Member
The link gives a very good comparison between the two ships and I probably think the RAN made its choice on a number of the differences ranging from propulsion, ease of changing the mast configuration to CEA radars to the space given over to the VLS. As the article points out, they are very different ships with possibly only 25% commonality. Don't be misled by the ref to T26 in the title.

UK Armed Forces Commentary: The Type 26 and the modern european frigates
Thank you for the link.
Having just read it, the Italian ship is considerably more capable as well as considerably more flexible - even without the allowance for CEA radars.
They may be a very good choice for the RAN if the Navantia hulls from the AWD lose out.
MB
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
As the article is from 2012, the Italian FREMM build number has been increased back to 10 ships as per the initial plan. I would prefer the Italian version for Canada as Australia does but I don't think either will win the CSC contract. As our fouled procurement system drags out the CSC program, it will give BAE more time to finalize its T26 proposal to Canada. It is likely the RCN preference but if BAE can't price it right then a hybrid Absalon/Iver Huitfeldt might be the second choice. Frankly, anything would be welcome at this point!
 

toryu

Member
Thank you for the link.
Having just read it, the Italian ship is considerably more capable as well as considerably more flexible - even without the allowance for CEA radars.
They may be a very good choice for the RAN if the Navantia hulls from the AWD lose out.
MB
There is also a very thorough and interesting article on navalanalyses.blogspot.com which I am not allowed to link to. Googling "Italian FREMM" brings it up on the third result.

I was surprised that it used a 76 super rapid for its close in defence! Also the large and flexible hanger space must be very appealing. I wouldn't be surprised if you could fit 3 VTOL UAV's in the larger of the two hangars.

Of course selection by the RAN would probably see a slight hybrid of the ASW/GP variants. I don't see the navy giving up the 5".

Something interesting brought up in the article and the the comments is that there appears to be a real space issue on the ships and is possibly hindering any thought of adding those 'fitted for but not with' extra VLS cells. There is mention of an "Improved FREMM" but I could not find any information that confirms whether any length has been added. It does bump the space for VLS up to 32 cells. How precisely will translate to the preferred Mk41 I wouldn't care to guess.

Interesting times ahead!

Cheers,

Law
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
I see today that the commonwealth has selected the Schiebel S-100 Camcopter for their UAS requirement.
It doesn't mention how many they've bought and where they will operate from? Interesting times ahead regarding unmanned systems it really does seem like the skies the limit.
Royal Australian Navy selects Schiebel’s Camcopter S-100 UAS | Naval Today
Thanks for the post . Always thought the S-100 was a good bit of kit for the ADF. Will be interesting as to numbers and future growth.
Just a question re the Phalanx CIWS. I have noticed recently that the Phalanx appears to have a more drab grey colour on it's dome, not the distinctive white that has been it's signature over the years. Is this just my middle aged perception of photography or is it true that the system is painted a uniform colour
.
https://images.defence.gov.au/asset...7/S20170152/20170201raaf8185068_0329.jpg.info

Regards S
 
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