Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[gf0012-aust]

No it won't be tempting. CN, the IIP, and all other communication regarding the new OPVs state quite clearly that they are for border protection duties initially.
Naturally this does not preclude retro fitting more capability in the future.
The budget allocated does not allow for bells and whistles.

yep, they won't be upgunning the OPV's. They have a defined role and there is no appetite at all to turn them into defacto low tech LCS roles etc...

 

[Volkodav]

No it won't be tempting. CN, the IIP, and all other communication regarding the new OPVs state quite clearly that they are for border protection duties initially but they will have extended reach and performance than the ACPBs.
Naturally this does not preclude retro fitting more capability in the future.
The budget allocated does not allow for bells and whistles.

Yep to do so would be to admit the OCV and before that the OPC/ Corvette should never have been cancelled, let alone the original DDL or the proposed modified Type 21 fast sloop (a beefed up, faster Amazon with US systems). What I would like to know is what the thinking is in relation to the fast frigates Johnston used to prattle on about, or were they just a WA Mafia wet dream to feed more tax payers money to Austal?

 

[gf0012-aust]

What I would like to know is what the thinking is in relation to the fast frigates Johnston used to prattle on about, or were they just a WA Mafia wet dream to feed more tax payers money to Austal?

I think you just answered your own question

 

[alexsa]

Fassmer is also offering a naval 80 meter OPV

https://www.fassmer.de/fileadmin/user_upload/9_Technical_Data_PDFs/fassmer-80m-naval_opv.pdf

as opposed to their standard OPV.

https://www.fassmer.de/fileadmin/us...80m-offshore-patrol-vessel-technical-data.pdf

With better weapons, better sensors and a limited ASuV, ASW and CiWS capability it could be tempting for the navy.

I am not sure this one will ever be 'on offer' given the need for a ready to go design if steel is going to be cut within 12 months. I would not mind but the schedule is what it is.

The OPV85 is pretty ugly but is a derivative of the the OPV80 so .... maybe.

For the first batch at least I would not expect more than an OPV with a millennium gun at the most. It would be nice to pull through the 76mm off the FFG but it is a bit of overkill for policing duties.

Edit ..... bugger .... I see others made the same point.

 

[gf0012-aust]

For the first batch at least I would not expect more than an OPV with a millennium gun at the most. It would be nice to pull through the 76mm off the FFG but it is a bit of overkill for policing duties.

Edit ..... bugger .... I see others made the same point.

I think the other thing is that for any upgunning to be done there would need to be a compelling reason to modify the CONOPs to justify the need and the change

thats just not going to happen - it would raise the question as to the integrity of Plan Blue and whether it was done correctly in the first place

 

[StingrayOZ]

I think you just answered your own question

Probably in the same box as the helium dirigible missile frigate proposal (airship industries?) that competed against the Meko 200 for the Anzac class. Special magic bin.

 

[Milne Bay]

If they are going to be cutting steel for the OPVs next year, then a decision on which design has to be taken soon, one would think.
I can't remember when this was meant to happen.
Anyone?
MB

 

[vonnoobie]

Probably in the same box as the helium dirigible missile frigate proposal (airship industries?) that competed against the Meko 200 for the Anzac class. Special magic bin.

Have to say from all the times I've read up on the Anzac's I have never noticed the airship proposal.. Any details on it? Just pure curiosity.

On the mention of the airships, Did try and look into it and while not coming across anything related to the Anzac's I did come across a paper done by the ADF looking at the feasability of airship's being used in the transport role and weather they could provide greater lift in shorter time period's then conventional mean's such as ship's with the RAN and C-130's with the RAAF.

At work so still reading it but is quite an interesting view if I say so my self so if any one else want's to have a gander at it ...

http://www.defence.gov.au/ADC/Publications/Geddes/2004/PublcnsGeddes2004_300310_ImprovingStrategic.pdf

 

[John Newman]

If they are going to be cutting steel for the OPVs next year, then a decision on which design has to be taken soon, one would think.
I can't remember when this was meant to happen.
Anyone?
MB

Last I read was that a decision was to be announced in third quarter of this year.

If it was to be earlier, historically there have been 'defence' equipment announcements around Budget time (May of each year).

So probably half a year away at least (and that doesn't leave much room to meet the planned 'cutting steel in 2018' schedule).

Don't know if that has been reported, see link below:

https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/future-frigates-industry-briefing-talk-hand-face-gagged/

I read this on the ASPI Strategist site recently, the relevant quotes were:

The only clear capability ‘news’ we got was for SEA 1180. A question from the floor asked whether any flexible mission-modules might be required to expand the roles of the OPV. We learned that this concept was now officially and properly dead. The program director replied ‘Not in these twelve vessels’. He re-emphasised that the focus is on the constabulary role, and that only the absolute minimum modification from the Off-The-Shelf capability was being sought, essentially just to meet regulatory requirements.

But that’s almost all we learned. ‘Will the OPVs embark a helicopter?’ was another deserving but unanswerable question; ‘Sorry, can’t discuss capability’. The questioner was a Kiwi involved in a similar procurement for New Zealand who seemed eager to offer insights. ‘Have you thought about some dog-kennels? We’ve found using dogs extremely useful in interdicting drug shipments’. The program director gave a muted acknowledgment, and the audience chuckled a little at the cuteness of the unsolicited advice. Apparently our Kiwi mate hadn’t fully imbibed the strictures and seriousness of the CEP processes.

The first paragraph regarding mission modules (future minewarfare? Hydrographic?) was interesting, "not in these 12 vessels".

Does that leave the door open for an expansion of the 'current' SEA 1180 fleet of 12 to eventually be more like the 2009 DWP 'planned' fleet of 20 ships?

And if these 12 ships are not equipped with mission modules, can they be 'retrofitted' in the future?

Lots of questions, not too many answers!!!

 

[Volkodav]

Last I read was that a decision was to be announced in third quarter of this year.

If it was to be earlier, historically there have been 'defence' equipment announcements around Budget time (May of each year).

So probably half a year away at least (and that doesn't leave much room to meet the planned 'cutting steel in 2018' schedule).

Don't know if that has been reported, see link below:

https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/future-frigates-industry-briefing-talk-hand-face-gagged/

I read this on the ASPI Strategist site recently, the relevant quotes were:



The first paragraph regarding mission modules (future minewarfare? Hydrographic?) was interesting, "not in these 12 vessels".

Does that leave the door open for an expansion of the 'current' SEA 1180 fleet of 12 to eventually be more like the 2009 DWP 'planned' fleet of 20 ships?

And if these 12 ships are not equipped with mission modules, can they be 'retrofitted' in the future?

Lots of questions, not too many answers!!!

I suspect in years to come the CEP is going to come back a bite us as it seems to limit flexibility and any sort of holistic approach unless specifically included in the requirements. Of course flexibility is seen as expensive by the powers that be and often left out, as is multi mission capability.

As an aside there are some interesting videos on YouTube from recent naval exhibitions that include some detail on Italy's new LHD. The thing that struck me considering our recent discussions on arming the Canberras, was the types baseline armament of 2x8 VLS and 3x 76mm (David/Dart CWIS configuration). Also of interest was a Thales 40mm CWIS and Harpoon ER.

 

[gf0012-aust]

I suspect in years to come the CEP is going to come back a bite us as it seems to limit flexibility and any sort of holistic approach unless specifically included in the requirements.

Its become part of the lexicon so as to save the Govt of the day for making a snap decision.

in real terms its weasel words

 

[hauritz]

The first paragraph regarding mission modules (future minewarfare? Hydrographic?) was interesting, "not in these 12 vessels".

Does that leave the door open for an expansion of the 'current' SEA 1180 fleet of 12 to eventually be more like the 2009 DWP 'planned' fleet of 20 ships?

And if these 12 ships are not equipped with mission modules, can they be 'retrofitted' in the future?

Lots of questions, not too many answers!!!

It is really unclear what the future Mine Countermeasure and Survey capability of the navy will be. The white paper is very vague about it.

In fact it wouldn't surprise me if there were no additional ships purchased by the navy to fill these roles. Instead these capabilities might simply be distributed to any ship in the fleet capable of carrying these mission modules ... including the new frigates.

 

[Volkodav]

It is really unclear what the future Mine Countermeasure and Survey capability of the navy will be. The white paper is very vague about it.

In fact it wouldn't surprise me if there were no additional ships purchased by the navy to fill these roles. Instead these capabilities might simply be distributed to any ship in the fleet capable of carrying these mission modules ... including the new frigates.

Austal have developed a multi mission version of the Cape Class, am now waiting for the WA mafia to push it as a replacement for the current MCMV fleet. They have also developed an enhanced patrol version with different sized RHIBs and a landing spot for a small rotary wing UAV.

God help us, but I can just imagine them getting some of this stuff across the line.

 

[alexsa]

Austal have developed a multi mission version of the Cape Class, am now waiting for the WA mafia to push it as a replacement for the current MCMV fleet. They have also developed an enhanced patrol version with different sized RHIBs and a landing spot for a small rotary wing UAV.

God help us, but I can just imagine them getting some of this stuff across the line.

With an alloy hull ...... it won't get up as far as I am aware. I think the past experience with ACPB there is much less appetite for a continuation of these type of vessels. They are built on the basis of HSC rules meaning they have operation limitations unless you want to risk damage of fatigue issues (which is what has happened and why we have 2 evolved Capes being delivered to Navy so they can remediate the fleet of ACPB). What Border force decide may be a different issue.

My understanding is the Mine hunters have not exactly been flogged so there is quite a bit of life in these vessels should they decide to persist with them for longer.

 

[Volkodav]

With an alloy hull ...... it won't get up as far as I am aware. I think the past experience with ACPB there is much less appetite for a continuation of these type of vessels. They are built on the basis of HSC rules meaning they have operation limitations unless you want to risk damage of fatigue issues (which is what has happened and why we have 2 evolved Capes being delivered to Navy so they can remediate the fleet of ACPB). What Border force decide may be a different issue.

My understanding is the Mine hunters have not exactly been flogged so there is quite a bit of life in these vessels should they decide to persist with them for longer.

According to a senior naval architect and composite expert I worked with, the two biggest issues with composite hulls is the initial acquisition cost and disposal. In his words they will last a hundred years, there will be no fatigue issues, but once it is time to dispose of them about the only option is cutting them up and burying them.

 

[vonnoobie]

According to a senior naval architect and composite expert I worked with, the two biggest issues with composite hulls is the initial acquisition cost and disposal. In his words they will last a hundred years, there will be no fatigue issues, but once it is time to dispose of them about the only option is cutting them up and burying them.

Since they are used in ship's I'm assuming they are no danger to the environment then the answer is simple.. Dive wrecks. Anything that help's out the fish population (I'd prefer catching some big fish rather then a lot of little fish) has my support.

 

[alexsa]

Since they are used in ship's I'm assuming they are no danger to the environment then the answer is simple.. Dive wrecks. Anything that help's out the fish population (I'd prefer catching some big fish rather then a lot of little fish) has my support.

Ummm no. The glues will eventually degrade and particulate will enter the ocean. This is a significant emerging issue

Plastic and Microplastics in our Oceans ? A Serious Environmental Threat

It includes even domestic pollution such as plastic drink bottles ..... so those who care .... use glass

 

[weegee]

Trump

Just changing direction a little for the moment. I saw this today and started to really think what the future holds for the ANZUS treaty and relations if Trump keeps carrying on like he is. Particularly if this article is anything go by?
Donald Trump call to Malcolm Turnbull: President ‘doesn’t care’ | Reaction

I know I shouldn't read much into articles like this. But generally where there's smoke there's fire. I can very much see Mr Trump isolating the USA is a big way during his term. You shouldn't dismiss your staunch allies.

 

[cdxbow]

Just changing direction a little for the moment. I saw this today and started to really think what the future holds for the ANZUS treaty and relations if Trump keeps carrying on like he is. Particularly if this article is anything go by?
Donald Trump call to Malcolm Turnbull: President ‘doesn’t care’ | Reaction

I know I shouldn't read much into articles like this. But generally where there's smoke there's fire. I can very much see Mr Trump isolating the USA is a big way during his term. You shouldn't dismiss your staunch allies.

We may be between a rock and a hard place. As a US ally we need to worry that he may follow his isolationist statements and role back the US role in Asia-pacific. On the other hand, and perhaps worse, while still a US ally, he could us into a war. Tough days ahead for the diplomats, strategists and politicians.The first turbulent weeks of his presidency have made me wonder if even the USA can survive President Trump.

 

[ngatimozart]

Guys, there is a USA thread if you wish to discuss issues regarding President Trump and his impacts. Lets try not to derail this one.