Argentina Air Force News and Discussion
- Thread starter RobWilliams
- Start date
Gidday cobber and welcome to the forum. We have a rule about one line posts especially for newbies and that is that they are not allowed so please don't post one line posts again. I suggest that you read the rules.
It's not so much of whether the aircraft are suitable or not, as to whether or not the Argentines are capable of paying for them. That is why so many of their previous acquisition attempts have failed - lack of money.
Too big,too complex and maintenance heavy really- they're almost having to reconstitute an air force from the ground up and currently their best aircraft are some upgraded A4's for example.
If I were Argentina, I'd be eyeing up second hand sales from a western nation. Something with a good pile of aftermarket spares. At the moment, their manpower costs are soaking up almost all their budget however and last I heard, they'd not flown any of their Mirage fleet since 2006 and they'd stood down any weekend presence for instance to save costs. Throwing some large and complex birds into the mix doesn't tick many boxes.
A4s have become obsolete. And 80s-90s isnt the same era as 2020s.
Argentina wasn't able to purchase western aircraft at least during Fernandez presidency because of her claims over Falklands islands (Britain would block any purchase of fighters from european countries or usa like they did with Gripen) and i dont know if this can change now under the new government which from the other hand doesn't show that military modernization is in its priorities.
Vulcan
Member
I'd argue the reverse is true.
The new President seems more intent on having constrictive relations with the UK and the Falklands - while still seen as 'important' - not being an obstacle in that relationship.
As for military spending . . .
Argentina moves to rebuild military in 2017 | IHS Jane's 360
That's just a headliner, but over the last few months Janes has been covering how Argentina is looking at various pieces of equipment for various roles (fighters, small arms, GBAD, helicopters etc ) I'd say compared to the last bunch they're showing a more constructive interest.
As for obsolescence, that's kind of the point, they're not future proofing their force from currently relevant aircraft, they're playing catch up.
The new President seems more intent on having constrictive relations with the UK and the Falklands - while still seen as 'important' - not being an obstacle in that relationship.
As for military spending . . .
Argentina moves to rebuild military in 2017 | IHS Jane's 360
That's just a headliner, but over the last few months Janes has been covering how Argentina is looking at various pieces of equipment for various roles (fighters, small arms, GBAD, helicopters etc ) I'd say compared to the last bunch they're showing a more constructive interest.
As for obsolescence, that's kind of the point, they're not future proofing their force from currently relevant aircraft, they're playing catch up.
Lack of money provided by the government to the armed forces, not inability of the state to lay its hands on the money. The Kirchners & their cronies treated the armed forces as enemies (lots of history there - e.g. the father of their foreign minister had been tortured by the last military government), & kept them on a shoestring budget, especially for foreign purchases.
Macri doesn't have that history, & is a different flavour of nationalist. I think he's more likely to pay attention to real defence needs than use imaginary threats to stoke up emotions, as the Kirchners did.
40 odd Israeli F-16's have just come onto the market...
Thrown in a weapons and airframe / sensor / avionics upgrade deal through Trump and bring them up to F-16V standard (the man loves a good deal, plus it shows support for Israel ...) and the Argentinian Airforce is back in business...
t68
Well-Known Member
Wonder what the British would think of that, come to think of it Trump seems pro Israeli and has gone off the boil with NATO wounded how that effects the US-UK relationship.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Those Israel A/B comes frm early 80's..don't know if it's still worth while to modified and upgrade them. Indonesia spend close to USD 800mio just to upgrade 24 ex USAF C/D to blk 52 avionics. This considering the airframe are free of cost. I believe those C/D still younger then Isreal A/B.
Even that it's still controversional within Indonesian political circle for those upgrade program, especially after one of those ex USAF F-16 got take off abbort accident and burned in the runway.
Don't know if Argentina politically want to take risk on financing those Israel A/B.
Even that it's still controversional within Indonesian political circle for those upgrade program, especially after one of those ex USAF F-16 got take off abbort accident and burned in the runway.
Don't know if Argentina politically want to take risk on financing those Israel A/B.
It would depend on the condition of the aircraft obviously and the standard you wish to operate at, but there is a precedent with Romania acquiring a dozen Portugese F-16A/B aircraft plus upgrades, logistical support, training of personnel and local training equipment.
With Israeli support I would suggest it would be very possible for Argentina to acquire and operate these aircraft, perhaps even without British interference in the deal. Israel already offered these aircraft to Romania, plus upgrades for $150m...
But perhaps not too. Time will tell.
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
Well just wondering on the Air Frame cost to modernize alone..Those A/B are frm Block 10, and being used extensively by Israel since attacking Iraq osirak reactor, through several Lebanon conflicts.
The cost of upgrading (MLU) 18 Thailand F-16 A/B block 15 OCU stated around USD 700 mio..that's from airframes that younger than Israel A/B and used much more moderately compared to Israel conflict extensive used..
So I kind wonder of USD 150 mio that the Israel offer for upgrade. True, Indonesian and Thailand upgrades are up to block 50-52 avionics/sensors standard..thus much of MLU cost coming frm there.
I don't know if the USD 150 mio only say upgrading the airframes but no avionics and sensors..or perhaps it's not for 40 airframes..
But yes..if Israel try to sell it..perhaps they can find someone interested...Afterall Indonesia in 80's bought closed to 40 A-4 frm them..ex Yom Kippur..
Still by the time Indonesia bought those A-4 it's being used only around 12-15 years..whille those F-16 has more or less 30 years in their Airframe age..
The cost of upgrading (MLU) 18 Thailand F-16 A/B block 15 OCU stated around USD 700 mio..that's from airframes that younger than Israel A/B and used much more moderately compared to Israel conflict extensive used..
So I kind wonder of USD 150 mio that the Israel offer for upgrade. True, Indonesian and Thailand upgrades are up to block 50-52 avionics/sensors standard..thus much of MLU cost coming frm there.
I don't know if the USD 150 mio only say upgrading the airframes but no avionics and sensors..or perhaps it's not for 40 airframes..
But yes..if Israel try to sell it..perhaps they can find someone interested...Afterall Indonesia in 80's bought closed to 40 A-4 frm them..ex Yom Kippur..
Still by the time Indonesia bought those A-4 it's being used only around 12-15 years..whille those F-16 has more or less 30 years in their Airframe age..
They're good jets, more than capable of meeting the requirements the Argentine A/F have and I'm sure the Israelis can produce a package of upgrades that fit the bill - however, they're still subject to FMS regs so if the US says they can't be sold to Argentina, that's that.
the concerned
Active Member
I remember reading in air forces monthly that the argentine airforce wasn't interested in f-16'so due to the low air intakes being susceptible to fod. Maybe ex Ecuadorian jets would be a good option as they retired both mirage f'1s and kfirs.
Kirchnerism from the other hand isnt dead. They are still the biggest party in Congress and they have the majority in senate. They also have a very well organized youth wing. So my view is that it will be also difficult for Macri to achieve some considerable purchases from western countries (USA, UK, France) because it is very likely that Kirchnerists will return in next election as well as their policy also for Falklands islands. Its sth that British may face for years.
Macri i think its more a big city businessman that decided to deal with politics as his next big thing in his career. I see him as an anlogue of Pinera in Chile where he managed to become president facing a moderate centrist opponent (Frei) in 2009 and with big push of his money and media of course in a country that centre-left is majority always after the end of dictatorship.
You may disagree with me but i think Macri also will not be so interested in upgrading the armed forces (especially air force and navy) just because he is more economy-oriented regarding his tenure
Seems the on again off again Argentine IAI Kfir Block 60 acquisition from Israel is on again with negotiations to resume. 12 - 14 aircraft are involved.
That's gold. 4000+ F-16's built and no-one has had a major issue with FOD but the Argentinian's are worried about it? Lol
Cost, lack of support all of that i would accept, but FOD is the issue? Gold!
Didn't want 'em for a reason they weren't willing to admit, so came up with an excuse.
Reminds me of the Indian rejection of ex-RN Sea Harriers because they were offered without AMRAAM & without radars.
The Indians knew before they started negotiating that the UK wasn't able to sell AMRAAM without US permission, & if the US gave that permission they could buy directly from the US. They'd also just made a deal to fit their old Sea Harriers with Israeli radars & Derby missiles, & could easily have extended that to include the ex-RN aircraft, giving them the logistical & operational advantages of commonality.
Reminds me of the Indian rejection of ex-RN Sea Harriers because they were offered without AMRAAM & without radars.
The Indians knew before they started negotiating that the UK wasn't able to sell AMRAAM without US permission, & if the US gave that permission they could buy directly from the US. They'd also just made a deal to fit their old Sea Harriers with Israeli radars & Derby missiles, & could easily have extended that to include the ex-RN aircraft, giving them the logistical & operational advantages of commonality.
Yes I suspect as much too, I just think it is hilarious they come up with something so left field, rather than a much more obvious (and at least true, when we all know the real reason is cost...) reason of lingering suspicion over a potential lack of American support, should things get nasty once more at the Malvinas...
If the Argentinian Airforce were offered several squadrons of Block 52+ equivalent F-16's at a price they could afford and with logistical and training support guaranteed, does anyone seriously believe 'FOD' concerns would hold such a deal up?
Last time they had a contract ready, but the general who was supposed to sign it, went home...
I think FAA wanted to wait out for next administration to see if they could get more money and maybe get a better aircraft. Also, they want Israeli help in marketing Pampas abroad and I cannot imagine Israeli being too interested about such committment.