Indonesian Aero News

[Ananda]

Frm arc web site. Some pictures on Indonesian AF Angkasa Yudha 2016 exercise in Natuna Islands at SCS vicinity.

This is quite rare for Indonesian AF showing most of their new arsenal, including Sukhoi 27/30 missiles, Israeli made Aerostar UAV, Rheinmettal Millenium gun..etc.

The exercise is one of the biggest that Indonesian AF put recently, with 70+ aircraft which 48 of that is combat aircraft. Practically close to half of Indonesian AF active inventory. However this exercise also point out the ability of Ranai AB as front base facing SCS to handle large operation eventough only temporary.

 

[Ananda]

israel via philipines uav

From arc web site

The UAV that at begining being told as UAV supplied by Philipines supplier, finally being open to public. They still not want told as Israel origin..but at least they openly said it's Aerostar UAV.

Those UAV already involve in anti-terorism operations..which the latest capturing terorist supects in the deep junggle of Sulawesi with the UAV sensors being used to penetrated terorist movement in the jungle frm 18,000 feet hight.

The dedicated UAV sq 51 is the first and so far the only UAV sq in TNI-AU, where in sq 51 the UAV Aerostar also augmented by locally build UAV Wulung.

 

[Ananda]

Another twist on Indonesian AF (TNI-AU) F-5 replacement. For some time many forums and media including some poster in here already indicated that SU-35 is the front runner. Something that understandable considering that many TNI-AU top brass and even the Min-Def him self told openly in media that they pick SU-35 as replacement.

However as I mentioned before, nothing is fixed in Indonesia until the contract is signed.
Saab?s Local Production Offer Checkmated Russian Su-35 in Indonesian Fighter Jet Race?

Frm defenseworld..shown why some of manufactures including SAAB, LM, Eurojet are still lobbying hard behind scene even officially the military brass openly stating Su-35 is the almost dure thing to be pick.

There some sign showing that that's not the case. When Jokowi meet Putin recently, many already speculated closed to sure thing that the contract for Su-35 will be digned. No surprise since quite a lot parties in the current admistration and legislation champhion Su-35.

However with Indonesisn policy demand some sort of ToT or localisation in any defense procurement..other manufacturers show some sign that the Russian are less willing to provide Indonesia on that area.
That's one of reason why DSME win sub won contract frm Russian Kilo..big defense item is too politically sensitive if the contract did not followed with some sort of ToT or offset or localisation deal with local industry.

Indonesian administration now is politically bind to provide insentive to local industry on any big defense procurement items..if the Russian did not or still do not provide that as follow up..then other manufacturers will turn providing insentives for local industry and snatch frmRussian something that supposedly in their favour.

Besides, the Russian so far shown provide more expensive deals on maintanance..something that even pro Sukhoi sources in AF grudgingly accepted that the Western Supplier provide better deals in maintanence.

 

[Ananda]

Kontrak pembelian Sukhoi Su-35 bisa terkendala ToT dan produksi bersama - ANTARA News

Frm Antara news agency, sorry in Indonesian. Basically it's similar with previous post. Stating that without somekind of acceptable ToT scheme, the government is hindered to procured any foreign defense equipment.

Indonesian legislation no 16/2012 already bind any administration to get somekind of Tech Transfer or Local Industry participation for any defense procurement. This is not mainly with localise join manufacturing. Like Leopard2 and Marder deal, Pindad got cooperation with Rheinmettal for further local maintenance and potential upgrade work locally. As such now Pindad already talked with the Army on potential further upgrade for Marder done locally.

All this compared to what happen on Russian build asset..where all maintenance except the light ones for Flankers, Mi-35, Mi-17 being done outside Indonesia. However for fairness Russia do provide help for their clients to build heavy maintenance locally like they do with Vietnam for Mi-17.

Still since this is Antara..and as official news agency..with the languege that bit more leaning on Saab Gripen..I personally wandering whether officially the government already leaning to other manufacturers, considering the Russian still won't give much on ToT issue.

 

[Ananda]

N245

Frm Jane's

Rugged design for regional development [INDODEF16-D2] | IHS Jane's 360

IAe/PT. DI, shown mock up for regional transport N245, which will compete for short haul below 50pcs regional market. N245 is the next project frm another short haul N219. Both derived frm military transport where N219 frm NC212 and N245 frm CN235.

Both have bigger engine frm their military derived cousins and the end sections being modified frm loading ramp to more airliner shape.
Basically this two aircraft N245 and N219 will put back DI as regional transport manufacturers, something that they lost when N250 project has not launch as plan due to Asian Economic Crisis.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Frm Jane's

Rugged design for regional development [INDODEF16-D2] | IHS Jane's 360

IAe/PT. DI, shown mock up for regional transport N245, which will compete for short haul below 50pcs regional market. N245 is the next project frm another short haul N219. Both derived frm military transport where N219 frm NC212 and N245 frm CN235.

Both have bigger engine frm their military derived cousins and the end sections being modified frm loading ramp to more airliner shape.
Basically this two aircraft N245 and N219 will put back DI as regional transport manufacturers, something that they lost when N250 project has not launch as plan due to Asian Economic Crisis.

Thank you fot sharing Ananda. The development of the N245 shouldn't be a too big challenge for IPTN, after the CN235 and N250 projects. But looking how slowly the N219 project is going, and the rate of production of ordered aircrafts like the NC212-400, CN235 and NAS332, i am not too optimistic about the N245 program..

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

And suddenly they negotiate again about the acquisition of the Su-35....Negosiasi Pembelian Sukhoi SU-35 Masih Terkendala Harga
While some months ago the minister of defence denied there were plans to buy the Su-35 and he even said that such plans never existed...while we all know that there was such intention for many months
..

 

[Ananda]

Airbus,Saab, and LockMart in Indodefence already told the media that they will help DI to prepared infrastructure and know how experience in Fighter manufacturing. Which will in the end help DI contribution for KFX/IFX project.

In short either one of three above can take the contract away frm Sukhoi, which before considered as 'near sure' candidate.
Rosoboron frm what I heard now try to conect Su-35 contract with Commodities Trade Off. Similar with what they've done 13 years ago with Megawati administration. However not clear on what ToT agreement.

Like I said..nothing can be certain until the contract is signed. And this means real procurement contract not MoU.

Add:
Seems in local forum there are discussions that shown increasing likelyhood SU-35 become the only candidate that 'again' meet the financial tender last stage..

 

[tonnyc]

Local forums are full of "information". Need I remind you that the Su-35 contract were to be signed back in May during President Widodo's visit to Russia and before that back in March during the Defense MInister's visit to Russia?

Being the only candidate means surprisingly little. Back in May, and back in March, were there any official contender other than Su-35? Were direct negotiation at high level not attempted?

Honestly, the Indonesian Air Force should just forget about the Su-35 and other fancy wish lists (like amphibious planes, the C-27, and A-400) for now. The money is not there. And won't be there next year either. Try again in 2018. Focus instead on getting more missiles, training more with live ammo, and getting more surveillance aircrafts. If they insist on getting fancy stuffs too soon, they will harm their actual training and operational budget.

 

[Ananda]

Just like I said in other thread..the money in 'budget' does not 'automatically' means there will be 'actual' money available.
Honestly that's one of the reason I don't involve with local forum...too many of posting clouded with Nationalism Bravado..and forgot reality check..
I do check at them frm time to time...cause some times there are info that can be considered reliable. For me, instead on using the money for Su-35..it's better to used them to modified existing 10 F-16 A/B in sq3 to at least in the same level of those 24 F-16C/D ex USAF with block 52 standard avionics.

I honestly don't see the point of Su-35. If there are 'real' money available..besides finishing the 'plan' upgrade of those F-16A/B..they should stick with more Su-30..1 mix Su-27/Su-30 sq and plus 1 Sq of Su-35..it's just collective high maintenance aircraft..with 'sub' efficient logistical foot print to begin with..3 type of Flankers, with each on limited population..not a sensible moved on building effective operational combat sq..except an expensive to maintain..

2 sq of Hawk 200/100, 2 sq of F-16 all modified to blk 52 avionics, and if they really like Flankers..get 2 sq of Su-30, each with 12 aircraft, get rid of the Su-27 and forgot Su-35..
Operate those 6 sq efficiently, then it's provide already much better fleet then now. Keep extra money for AEW, forgot heavy lift transport like A400M, just upgrade existing C-130. Stick to C295, forgot C27.
Honestly, when I read what theAir Forcewish list..I can't help to rolled my eyes..and this come only frm defense enthusiast not professional defense planner. Then again, with what they wish list, I wonder if TNI-AU really have reliable defense planner.

At least even though not ideal yet..the defense planner for TNI-AD, and TNI-AL..is making more sense on their procurement path..compared to TNI-AU..

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Just like I said in other thread..the money in 'budget' does not 'automatically' means there will be 'actual' money available.
Honestly that's one of the reason I don't involve with local forum...too many of posting clouded with Nationalism Bravado..and forgot reality check..
I do check at them frm time to time...cause some times there are info that can be considered reliable. For me, instead on using the money for Su-35..it's better to used them to modified existing 10 F-16 A/B in sq3 to at least in the same level of those 24 F-16C/D ex USAF with block 52 standard avionics.

I honestly don't see the point of Su-35. If there are 'real' money available..besides finishing the 'plan' upgrade of those F-16A/B..they should stick with more Su-30..1 mix Su-27/Su-30 sq and plus 1 Sq of Su-35..it's just collective high maintenance aircraft..with 'sub' efficient logistical foot print to begin with..3 type of Flankers, with each on limited population..not a sensible moved on building effective operational combat sq..except an expensive to maintain..

2 sq of Hawk 200/100, 2 sq of F-16 all modified to blk 52 avionics, and if they really like Flankers..get 2 sq of Su-30, each with 12 aircraft, get rid of the Su-27 and forgot Su-35..
Operate those 6 sq efficiently, then it's provide already much better fleet then now. Keep extra money for AEW, forgot heavy lift transport like A400M, just upgrade existing C-130. Stick to C295, forgot C27.
Honestly, when I read what theAir Forcewish list..I can't help to rolled my eyes..and this come only frm defense enthusiast not professional defense planner. Then again, with what they wish list, I wonder if TNI-AU really have reliable defense planner.

At least even though not ideal yet..the defense planner for TNI-AD, and TNI-AL..is making more sense on their procurement path..compared to TNI-AU..

I'm 100% agree with you Ananda. Besides that they have to upgrade the two Su-30MK aircrafts to Su-30MK2 level. And in my opinion only one KC-130B is not enough....
And if our budget is so limited, why not replacing the F-5E/F with the TA-50? It's superior in everything compared to the F-5E/F.

 

[r0m8470]

I'm 100% agree with you Ananda. Besides that they have to upgrade the two Su-30MK aircrafts to Su-30MK2 level. And in my opinion only one KC-130B is not enough....
And if our budget is so limited, why not replacing the F-5E/F with the TA-50? It's superior in everything compared to the F-5E/F.

Good thought. If the air force is really serious about Flankers, then have 2 or 1 big sqn filled with Su-30MK2 as the main strike fighter/silver bullet type sqn and outfit them with all the gear, then fill the rest of the combat sqn with F-16. Just bring them up to the same standard as the F-16C block 52ID, until the KFX comes along (if ever).

What I don't get is, the air force have all the wish list, but then when they get their gear, not sure if they ever developed operational doctrine for them. There has been no live fire test of the BVR (except once I believe last year). No live fire exercise of KH-31, and the other air to ground ordnance, with maybe 1 KH-29 launch. Live fire is expensive indeed, but it's more expensive owning ordnance with no skills to employ them IMO.

The Super Tucano is also interesting. Seems like it's embedded in the air force mind, that they have to have COIN ability. Maybe that's forged by long experience operating the Broncos.

 

[Ananda]

Been discusing Super Tucano long time ago on this thread. I understand 'some what' with the Air Force 'logic' on COIN..but not agree with most of it.

For ground close support..well with the Army already procured MI-35 and in the process getting AH-63..then basically for that action can be covered by the Army Air Brigade with their attack helicopters. Besides Tucano weapons payload is not much bigger than what 'Hind' or 'Apache' can bring.

For Border survailance..well even the AF eventually moved to UAV on doing that..Today UAV technology..even the ones that being developed domistically can do what Tucano does with reduce cost.. The AF eventually will get MALE UAV..which that kind of UAV can do much border survailance duty more efficiently then Tucano can..

Thus left only the Counter Insurgence action which now geared up to Anti Terorism capability..the Air Force still deemed that endurance and combat radius of Tucano still hold advantage compared to what the Army Hind or latter Apache can bring. US did find some niche capabilities that potentially can be served better with Turboprop Light Fighters compared to Attack Heli or Fast Jet Fighters, during their operation in Iraq and Afghanistan against Local Insurgance.

Still for me, that 'niche' capability is not justifiable relative to what 'budget' availability to procured and still maintaining dedicated COIN squadron..
I prefered the budget to be used for more attack helicopter or MALE UAV..but seems some 'ego' in AF still hold on with dedicated COIN fighters.

Well, fortunately for the AF..guys like me..not the one that hold 'key' to their budget..

 

[Ananda]

And if our budget is so limited, why not replacing the F-5E/F with the TA-50? It's superior in everything compared to the F-5E/F.

Viper dan Super Hercules, Kuda Hitam untuk TNI AU

Well Angkasa On Line edition do put some comment frm AF brass that they 'studied' F-16V (blk 70), Grippen, and FA-50 for HAWK 200/100 replacement. Thus this is bigger contract than F-5 replacement..since this is talk for 2 Sq rather than only 1 for present competition on getting F-5 replacement.

If this is reliable, then this shown more advantages to Flankers as F-5 replacement. Some rumours that I heard seems indicating Rosoboron still reluctant to come down on their prices for SU-35..but they might be willing to take the budget offered for another sq of SU-30MK2..
Again this is just rumours..and right now there are too many unconfirmed report/rumours circulating..

As for Hawk replacement..well it's 'still' in studied 'phase' thus it can go after 2020+ period..or so called MEF3..
Personally I think another transport 'heavy' more possible..that's why LM interested with C-130J offered. The TNI-AU..already envisaged 3 Transport 'heavy' sq. However even with ex RAAF C-130H..the availability of operational C-130 only can covered 2 sq, As the C-130B even with some workout being done are still 50 years old airframes.
C-130 H (Originale TNI-AU plus ex RAAF) being talked going to be upgrade to more modern standard. That will cover 2 sq, whille requirement for another sq can not in the end being covered by C-130B for long. This seems that being after by LM..contract for C-130J as C-130B replacement.

Budgetwise..the availability for transport 'heavy' seems being allocated..in current MEF2 budget..
Despite Airbus offered (together with PT DI) on A-400M..Logically for Indonesian condition..getting more advance but familiar transport like C-130J..should be more reasonable based also both on procurement and maintanance budget wise.

Again we are talking with Indonesian procurement..which sometimes 'logic' not always come hand in hand..
Especially with current AF wish list track record..

 

[r0m8470]

I wonder how big is the influence of a possibility of embargo weighing on the Air Force's planners mind reinforcing their public insistence on acquiring Su-35? Anyone knew what was the real impact during the embargo period on the operational status of the older F-16A? Seems like they still flew regularly on various air defence exercises. The Sukhoi does not come across as a beacon of reliability either, with one needing a deep overhaul already. Anyone have the news why it needs a heavy maintenance already?

Currently the Air Force has a high/medium/low mix of combatants - Flanker/F-16/Hawk mix respectively, with a COIN and LIFT sqns (Super Tucano and TA-50). One can argue that the TA-50 can actually fill in the role of F-5. They are supersonic, with better avionics (sans FCS radar, but F-5 radar is limited anyway), and same type of payload. Would the Air Force be better served by a mix of F-16 and whatever the Hawk 209/109 replacements, and ditch the Flanker altogether? The Flanker does have the range, but advanced model F-16 can have CFT, and I believe there is a proposal to equip Gripen with CFT. Flanker also have a unique weapons load in KH-31, which is probably the hardest ordnance to find comparables in the west, but we do not know either how effective KH-31 really is. R-77 might be a unique capability, but now Meteor is in service which is perhaps comparable.

From ToT standpoint, have we seen working ToT arrangements for Flanker buyers? Maybe India? China certainly has mastered enough skills to actually build an arguably improved copy, which is ironically may make the Russians queasy about granting ToT rights to other countries from the fear of the same experience.

From logistical and man resource perspective, a less diverse mix certainly helps. Buying 4.5th gen jets certainly carry a lot of ancillaries. You can't just buy the aircraft. There is a need to maintain and associated maintenance skills, develop operational tactics, and keep the aircraft capability 'fresh' to some degree (software upgrade, ability to accept new ordnance etc).

 

[tonnyc]

It's big, but really it doesn't decide anything, but rather things are decided first and then the embargo worry is used to justify the hodge-podge. E.g., if the idea is to get some Russian fighters as a counter-balance to the F-16, getting new Su-30 and then upgrading the old ones to a modern standard should fulfill that requirement. But that idea, as best as I can determine, never got a look, because it would jeopardize the Su-35 procurement plan, so that must never be even considered.

 

[Ananda]

That's why in my previous post..I said that 'logic' is not necessarily hand in hand in Indonesian defense procurement..some other 'elements' always come in hand..

In one side..after getting that refurbished 24 F-16 blk25 with blk 52 avionics and sensors..they seems getting in right moved to also plan to upgrade existing 10 F-16 blk15 OCU with same standard electronics and sensors...(eventough the contracts on upgrade projects has not been sign yet..at least the info say that)..
That way they can get 2 sq of F-16 with more or less uniform capabilities..

However they done completely bizare way on Flankers..in one side it's understandable to replace F-5 sq for Flankers sq thus made them operated 2 sq..however by 'fixiated' with SU-35..instead using the budget for more SU-30 as logical way,..seems more and elusive thinking on the point is always getting SU-35 no matter what..

They should goes with 2 sq of Su-30, 2 sq F-16 modified with blk52 standard..and complements with 2 sq of existing Hawk 200..this is the 'logical' way..instead find a multiple ways and negotiation for 'handfull' of Su-35..which keep put pressure on limited budget which more beneficially set to more modern Su-30 and modified existing ones to same standard..

Local media and forums full of 'poster' and coments that only encouraged with more sophisticated fighers even on limited numbers..instead further standarisation..
Nationalism bravado that highly infected local forums, media, and even some parlimentary members seems further encouraging the mindef moved as the 'professional' as the 'users' known best..eventough other more 'richer' users in the world do more'logical' moved as mentioned before..

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

That's why in my previous post..I said that 'logic' is not necessarily hand in hand in Indonesian defense procurement..some other 'elements' always come in hand..

In one side..after getting that refurbished 24 F-16 blk25 with blk 52 avionics and sensors..they seems getting in right moved to also plan to upgrade existing 10 F-16 blk15 OCU with same standard electronics and sensors...(eventough the contracts on upgrade projects has not been sign yet..at least the info say that)..
That way they can get 2 sq of F-16 with more or less uniform capabilities..

However they done completely bizare way on Flankers..in one side it's understandable to replace F-5 sq for Flankers sq thus made them operated 2 sq..however by 'fixiated' with SU-35..instead using the budget for more SU-30 as logical way,..seems more and elusive thinking on the point is always getting SU-35 no matter what..

They should goes with 2 sq of Su-30, 2 sq F-16 modified with blk52 standard..and complements with 2 sq of existing Hawk 200..this is the 'logical' way..instead find a multiple ways and negotiation for 'handfull' of Su-35..which keep put pressure on limited budget which more beneficially set to more modern Su-30 and modified existing ones to same standard..

Local media and forums full of 'poster' and coments that only encouraged with more sophisticated fighers even on limited numbers..instead further standarisation..
Nationalism bravado that highly infected local forums, media, and even some parlimentary members seems further encouraging the mindef moved as the 'professional' as the 'users' known best..eventough other more 'richer' users in the world do more'logical' moved as mentioned before..

Maybe some people have the feeling that we lagging begin other countries. The Su-30MKM from Malaysia for example is much more sophisticated and advanced than our Su-30MK2, and China has ordered 24 Su-35s. But even then we have to increase the defencebudget to be able to buy a complete squadron in stead of just 8 pcs... Personally I think we need to have at least two squadrons of aircrafts without American components, to prevent problems like we have in the past during embargoes...

 

[Ananda]

Maybe some people have the feeling that we lagging begin other countries. The Su-30MKM from Malaysia for example is much more sophisticated and advanced than our Su-30MK2, and China has ordered 24 Su-35s. But even then we have to increase the defencebudget to be able to buy a complete squadron in stead of just 8 pcs... Personally I think we need to have at least two squadrons of aircrafts without American components, to prevent problems like we have in the past during embargoes...

2 sq of non-american/western components is what they aimed for..which I mentioned before is rationale move to balance your portfolio..
However what they should do 'rationally' is to have 2 sq of similar aircraft to simplified your logistic foot print. Thus rationally is 2 sq of SU-30..instead 2 sq of mix Su-27/Su-30 and handfull of Su-35..

There are upgrade packages if you want to make Su-30 to be comparable 'relatively' in avionics capabilities with the like of Singaporean F-15SG or Ausies F-18F Shornet..
That's what they logically should do..instead 'all the way' make every argument just to have handfull of Su-35.
If they still want to have Su-35..then make a deal to trade in all existing Su-27SKM/Su-30MK2 for Su-35..However if you don't have enough money for all 2 sq of Su-35 then come down to get 2 sq of Su-30..

Again the game is to simplyfied your logistics foot print..thus you can operated those flankers more efficiently and effectively..or you're going to have those 'fancy' bird fly once a month at most..

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Some old news from februari.
Is this just a plan or is it really a signed contract? Is this done because the Finmeccanica SEER RWR is better than the already installed Sky Guardian 200 RWR, or is it because the currently fitted Sky Guardian 200 RWR are all inoperable/broken? Also unclear is the amount of aircrafts to be upgraded.

Singapore Airshow 2016: Indonesia to upgrade Hawk 200/209s with RWR self-protection
Gareth Jennings, London and Richard Scott, London - IHS Jane's International Defence Review
16 February 2016


The Indonesian Air Force (Tentara Nasional Indonesia - Angkatan Udar, or TNI-AU) is to upgrade its BAE Systems Hawk 200/209 in the light attack and light fighter aircraft with a new radar warning receiver (RWR) self-protection system.

An unspecified number of the TNI-AU's Hawk 200/209 aircraft are to be equipped with the Finmeccanica SEER RWR under the programme, which was announced during the Singapore Airshow on 16 February.

Complete article at Singapore Airshow 2016: Indonesia to upgrade Hawk 200/209s with RWR self-protection | IHS Jane's 360