War Against ISIS

gazzzwp

Member
Civil wars are the ugliest form of warfare. This has been a fact for centuries. Like it or not, Assad will probably survive. If the opposition wins, the outcome for the Syrian people wouldn't be any better, just two cheeks forming the same A-hole.

As for drawing the line against Russian adventurism, Syria isn't it. More blood and treasure being squandered in the ME is a political loser for Western governments. The $hit will hit the fan in Eastern Europe.
I just want to make one small point; people talk about the failed Obama strategy in Syria and the humiliation of the US etc. The truth may be a little different. Of the the two main players, judging by the sentiment on RT it seems to me that it is in fact Russia who has the redder face and I have been trying to work out why. It is expecting an attack on it's ally which is the only reason for shipping the new S-300's into Syria.

This is turning out to be a significant exercise in terms of time, cost and resources for Putin, and judging by the way jets were sent home last March I do have to wonder if the expectation was that this would all be wrapped up by now. Russia is committed now and will find if difficult to extricate itself.

The US on the other hand has the luxury of weighing up options. Military, politically, or otherwise. In withdrawing from talks they have effectively freed themselves of obligations, and no doubt this has turned up to Putin as arrogance. "How dare you turn your back on me?"

The next steps will be fascinating.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
I just want to make one small point; people talk about the failed Obama strategy in Syria and the humiliation of the US etc. The truth may be a little different.
The fact remains that at present Russia has achieved more than the U.S. It has become a major player in the region [forcing the U.S. to deal with it], it has prevented Assad from falling and it can justifiably say that its military involvement; although it hasn't defeated IS, has prevented to a large extent IS gaining more ground. How this turns out for Russia in the long run remains to be seen but for now, it has achieved quite a bit. What has the U.S. achieved? It's major regional allies are not helping, Assad is still there, the ''moderates'' still can't gain a decisive edge on the battlefield and Russia is standing firm. Caught in between 2 outside powers are ordinary Syrians.

Russia is committed now and will find if difficult to extricate itself.
So will the U.S. How does one disengage when it failed to gain most of its political objectives? I suspect that Russia's prepared to stay engaged much longer than the U.S. is.

[Inside Story - What Has Russia Accomplished In Syria?]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Iu_4GMKEXM
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Update.

The regime push into Aleppo has slowed.

Meanwhile Turkey has recovered positions lost to an ISIS counter-attack and is now once again pushing south. It looks like al-Bab will end up surrounded. At this point it looks like Turkey will be left in control, in northern Syria, with the Kurds split into two enclaves indefinitely.

Битва за Ðлеппо. 04.10.2016 - Colonel Cassad

Russia confirms S-300 deployment and says it will be used to provide air cover for Tartus. The S-300 deployment may have something to do with the lack of ship-based S-300s which have been used in the past. Note, the S-300V4 is a serious upgrade with capabilities comparable to the S-400, it's not from the same line as S-300P and PMU series. Most noteworthy are it's ABM and anti-cruise missile capabilities.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Ìèíîáîðîíû ïîäòâåðäèëî äîñòàâêó "ïåðåïîëîøèâøåé" Çàïàä áàòàðåè Ñ-300 â Ñèðèþ
МиниÑтерÑтво обороны РоÑÑии подтвердило переброÑку ЗРС С-300 в Сирию - bmpd

Meanwhile Iraq has once again piped up about undesirable Turkish military presence in Iraq.

Abadi: Turkish presence in Iraq may lead to regional war - Iraqi News
 

Ranger25

Active Member
Staff member
The fact remains that at present Russia has achieved more than the U.S. It has become a major player in the region [forcing the U.S. to deal with it], it has prevented Assad from falling and it can justifiably say that its military involvement; although it hasn't defeated IS, has prevented to a large extent IS gaining more ground. How this turns out for Russia in the long run remains to be seen but for now, it has achieved quite a bit. What has the U.S. achieved? It's major regional allies are not helping, Assad is still there, the ''moderates'' still can't gain a decisive edge on the battlefield and Russia is standing firm. Caught in between 2 outside powers are ordinary Syrians.



So will the U.S. How does one disengage when it failed to gain most of its political objectives? I suspect that Russia's prepared to stay engaged much longer than the U.S. is.

[Inside Story - What Has Russia Accomplished In Syria?]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Iu_4GMKEXM
I don't see Putin/Russia wanting to extricate itself. They're there to stay and keep Tartus for its broader goals in the Mediterranean. The S300 deployment, as Feanor confirmed, is there not as a poke against the West, but to provide further security for its naval base and assets. May be more preparation for a possible Kuznetsov deployment to the region.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Yes. Putin is there for the long haul. He's not going to cut and run just because he hasn't achieved all his objectives. Interestingly in the video I posted in my previous post, the Russian guest mentions that Russian involvement in Syria isn't popular amongst not only ordinary Russians but also the elite. As for the S-300s, I really don't seen why some are making such a fuss over it. In fact I'm surprised the Russians didn't do it sooner. Not only does the S-300 provide added security to Russia's assets there but it also send a strong political message that like others, Russia is also a major player in the region and that it will do what it has to do to safeguards its interests. Like Assad, the Russian will also no doubt be a wee bit worried about how the next U.S. President handles Syria? How will Russia react if the ''moderates'' become beneficiaries of U.S. supplied MANPADs and ATGWs?
 

gazzzwp

Member
I don't see Putin/Russia wanting to extricate itself. They're there to stay and keep Tartus for its broader goals in the Mediterranean. The S300 deployment, as Feanor confirmed, is there not as a poke against the West, but to provide further security for its naval base and assets. May be more preparation for a possible Kuznetsov deployment to the region.
Interesting on RT:

https://www.rt.com/usa/361672-covert-us-strikes-aleppo/

Yes it is RT and yes there is reporting bias or propaganda. To be honest if it were true it would not surprise me in the least. I can find no confirmation yet in other mainstream media.

Just as an aside there is also this that I have seen this elsewhere on the web:

:Russia launches civil defense drills amid tensions with US | Fox News

Some 40 million Russians taking part in a nuclear defence drill. I know I have expressed my concerns about Russian leadership here but I truly believe that this is taking things a little too far. It's as if Russia wants nothing more than a return to the cold war ways. Why is it doing this? I have some ideas but I would like to see if others have views first.


Edit to add:

Interception of TU-160 bombers flying in NATO airspace. Nothing terribly unusual but in the context of the other current events it may well be significant.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37562499
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Interesting on RT:

https://www.rt.com/usa/361672-covert-us-strikes-aleppo/

Yes it is RT and yes there is reporting bias or propaganda. To be honest if it were true it would not surprise me in the least. I can find no confirmation yet in other mainstream media.

Just as an aside there is also this that I have seen this elsewhere on the web:

:Russia launches civil defense drills amid tensions with US | Fox News

Some 40 million Russians taking part in a nuclear defence drill. I know I have expressed my concerns about Russian leadership here but I truly believe that this is taking things a little too far. It's as if Russia wants nothing more than a return to the cold war ways. Why is it doing this? I have some ideas but I would like to see if others have views first.
It's because Russian strategic planners believe that a major war is likely within the forseeable future and are preparing for the possibility. By the way, it's not just a nuclear defense drill, it's a civil defense drill more broadly, from what I understand. Remember Russia has a federal ministry responsible for dealing with "emergency situations". From floods and earthquakes, to all out nuclear war, their job is emergency relief, medical aid, supplies to affected areas, and evacuations where practical. This is the agency that takes over civil defense responsibilities in war time.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
In an unrelated note, the Buyan-M 21631s from the Black Sea Fleet are headed to the Mediterranean again. The were passing through the straits on their way home as of Sep 16th.

Ракетно-Ð²Ð¾Ð´Ð¾Ð¼Ñ‘Ñ‚Ð½Ð°Ñ Ð±Ñ€Ð°Ñ‚Ð²Ð° возвращаетÑÑ Ð´Ð¾Ð¼Ð¾Ð¹ Ñ Ð±Ñ Ð² СЗМ. - Блог ÐлекÑандра Шакуна

And they're headed back to the Mediterranean as of Oct 4th.

««Зелёный Дол» и «Серпухов» ушли в Средиземное море» в блоге «Фото„акты» - Сделано у наÑ

That's a rather impressive op-tempo. It will also mean that the Russian Mediterranean group will have a total of 24 cruise missile shafts in it, with 2 Buyans and the 11356.
 

Toblerone

Banned Member
From where? Nothing has really changed, I am not impressed by these displays. It is a orchestrated escalation by USA to divert atttention from the actual facts on the ground. The regime is gaining neighbourhoods in Aleppo by the day and keeps calling for rebel groups to accept the offer to leave the city towards other rebel-held areas.

Sooner or later some group will take them up on this offer and it may snowball into more surrenders.

Shooting down a US plane is the LAST thing the russians would want to do. It would give the americans a blank check to do what they want.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
From where? Nothing has really changed, I am not impressed by these displays. It is a orchestrated escalation by USA to divert atttention from the actual facts on the ground. The regime is gaining neighbourhoods in Aleppo by the day and keeps calling for rebel groups to accept the offer to leave the city towards other rebel-held areas.

Sooner or later some group will take them up on this offer and it may snowball into more surrenders.

Shooting down a US plane is the LAST thing the russians would want to do. It would give the americans a blank check to do what they want.
Russia has just "warned" the US against striking SAA targets, stating that this would be a definite threat to Russian service members, and reminding the west that Syria has effective means of air defense such as the Buk and S-200 systems.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Ìèíîáîðîíû ïðåäîñòåðåãëî Âàøèíãòîí îò óäàðîâ ïî àðìèè Àñàäà â Ñèðèè
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Just 2 weeks ago the U.S. had warned Syria about air strikes conducted in the vicinity of where U.S. special forces were operating.

US military commander warns Russia and Syria: 'We will defend ourselves' | The Independent

I really hope that Russia has tight control over the Syrians. The last thing we need is a Syrian commander authorising a strike which gets intercepted by U.S. jets and Russia retaliating. We also could do without a situation where a U.S. aircraft operating close to Russian forces or launching strikes against Assad troops is engaged by a Russian ground based missile.

The UN Syria's envoy has offered to personally lead rebels out of Aleppo.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/...-faces-total-destruction-161006125742882.html
 

gazzzwp

Member
Just 2 weeks ago the U.S. had warned Syria about air strikes conducted in the vicinity of where U.S. special forces were operating.

US military commander warns Russia and Syria: 'We will defend ourselves' | The Independent
I think that is an old article. August when the Syrians were flying sorties close to US special forces. I believe it was just after that that the incident occurred with the F-22's shadowing the Syrian SU-24's.

I really hope that Russia has tight control over the Syrians. The last thing we need is a Syrian commander authorising a strike which gets intercepted by U.S. jets and Russia retaliating. We also could do without a situation where a U.S. aircraft operating close to Russian forces or launching strikes against Assad troops is engaged by a Russian ground based missile.
Unlikely that an escalation will occur that way I would have thought. By accident maybe but since the war is going very much in favour of the authorities I see no reason why Syria would want to risk the US becoming more involved.

I would like to be a fly on the wall at the Pentagon to see what is really on their minds right now,
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Yes as I indicated it was 2 weeks ago.

If I had to guess I think neither side is really decided on what to do next.They're mostly reacting to each others moves. Both will want to be seen to be strong and firm.

[CrossTalk On Russia-US relations: Dangerous Escalation]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xd5fuAUM2BM
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
From where? Nothing has really changed, I am not impressed by these displays. It is a orchestrated escalation by USA to divert atttention from the actual facts on the ground. The regime is gaining neighbourhoods in Aleppo by the day and keeps calling for rebel groups to accept the offer to leave the city towards other rebel-held areas.

Sooner or later some group will take them up on this offer and it may snowball into more surrenders.

Shooting down a US plane is the LAST thing the russians would want to do. It would give the americans a blank check to do what they want.
Why is it an orchestrated escalation by the US? One would think that the Syrians and Russians have actually escalated the situation and deliberate attacks on civilian aid convoys could possibly be viewed as war crimes. Ditto the deliberate bombing of hospitals. It's not the US bombing innocent civilians but the Syrian govt forces and the Russians. Secondly, why would the US want war with Russia? It can't afford a war against Russia nor is it positioned for one.
 

Toblerone

Banned Member
The syrian regime has always been bombing indiscriminately. I expect nothing less from a year-long civil war with sectarian complications and I am not shocked. These atrocities do not change my view about what I hope the outcome will be. The other side is much worse and commits worse atrocities and shelling. This isn't a factor, there are no good guys.

The momentum has shifted, there is a path to victory in Aleppo and Damascus and later more successes, this is no longer a quagmire. This is what I care about. The USA do not want this resolution to the conflict because they have not achieved their strategic goal of removing a russian ally and installing an easily controlled government. So they are trying to throw a spanner at the works with sudden appeals to humanitarianism, war crimes, making "mistaken" bombings against people who actually combat ISIS lunatics face-to-face and not pushing buttons to kill people with drones. This is why I believe this escalation is orchestrated by the USA, they are running out of options because of the new realities on the ground.

I see everything through the prism of realpolitik and no pictures of dusty children will convince me that the USA can make a positive contribution to the end of this conflict. Not because I hate the US, but because they have proven their destructive influence and stupendous failure in maintaining stability after toppling regimes in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya etc. Otherwise I would be on the USA globalist bandwagon, too.

I never said the US want war with Russia. They are panicking because they may have to deal with a russian+iranian aligned regime in Syria and another in Iraq once Maliki goes away. Anti-USA, anti-saudi and anti-Israel.
 

gazzzwp

Member
Secondly, why would the US want war with Russia? It can't afford a war against Russia nor is it positioned for one.
I'm just curious why you feel this? Of the two I would have thought that it would be Russia who could ill afford a war. In terms of preparedness then I agree Russia is definitely putting in more resources and sending messages and propaganda. That does not mean that the US is unready. Don't forget they have a much bigger military and more allies.
 

gazzzwp

Member
The syrian regime has always been bombing indiscriminately. I expect nothing less from a year-long civil war with sectarian complications and I am not shocked. These atrocities do not change my view about what I hope the outcome will be. The other side is much worse and commits worse atrocities and shelling. This isn't a factor, there are no good guys.
Nonetheless Russia as a major nation could be subject to international sanctions over it's war crimes. Accidents are one thing, but deliberate targeting of aid convoys and hospitals is another. Merkel is already on the case:

https://www.rt.com/news/361772-germany-sanctions-russia-syria/

The momentum has shifted, there is a path to victory in Aleppo and Damascus and later more successes, this is no longer a quagmire. This is what I care about. The USA do not want this resolution to the conflict because they have not achieved their strategic goal of removing a russian ally and installing an easily controlled government. So they are trying to throw a spanner at the works with sudden appeals to humanitarianism, war crimes, making "mistaken" bombings against people who actually combat ISIS lunatics face-to-face and not pushing buttons to kill people with drones. This is why I believe this escalation is orchestrated by the USA, they are running out of options because of the new realities on the ground.

I see everything through the prism of realpolitik and no pictures of dusty children will convince me that the USA can make a positive contribution to the end of this conflict. Not because I hate the US, but because they have proven their destructive influence and stupendous failure in maintaining stability after toppling regimes in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya etc. Otherwise I would be on the USA globalist bandwagon, too.

I never said the US want war with Russia. They are panicking because they may have to deal with a russian+iranian aligned regime in Syria and another in Iraq once Maliki goes away. Anti-USA, anti-saudi and anti-Israel.
Yes this I see to be true. Difficult now to see what the US can do with so many ground forces from different nations on the scene, Turkey playing a vague role, and SA passive. The answer is they can do nothing. Just letting their air force loose would be a PR disaster. The air defenses that they would have to negotiate is another problem. Upsetting Russia another. The US as much as I do not want to accept the fact have been totally neutered in this conflict. I can not make up my mind whether they are seething or indifferent.

To add to the complications, Shia forces from Iraq and now crossing the border to support the seige of Aleppo. This is going to do nothing to support the humanitarian cause or for that matter serve any US interest as far as I can see.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/10/06/iraqi-militia-fighters-pour-into-syria-to-support-assad.html

It seems to me that Russia's plan is to force out the US from the whole axis from the Med to Iran as they slowly gain influence now with Iraq.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I'm just curious why you feel this? Of the two I would have thought that it would be Russia who could ill afford a war. In terms of preparedness then I agree Russia is definitely putting in more resources and sending messages and propaganda. That does not mean that the US is unready. Don't forget they have a much bigger military and more allies.
Wars, unless they are total war, are fought for specific reasons and to be considered successful have to avoid crossing certain cost and consequence thresholds. Otherwise you end up with a Pyrrhic victory at best or a gigantic mess at worst. Fighting a war with Russia could escalate unpredictably and in ways that are extremely detrimental to the US. Far more detrimental then any gains in the Middle East could possibly compensate for.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Nonetheless Russia as a major nation could be subject to international sanctions over it's war crimes. Accidents are one thing, but deliberate targeting of aid convoys and hospitals is another. Merkel is already on the case:

https://www.rt.com/news/361772-germany-sanctions-russia-syria/
Germany is aspiring to be the EU power. And Merkel specifically, as well as Germany more broadly, is in a political confrontation with Russia. It makes sense that when they can no longer push for more sanctions over Ukraine (in fact they may have problems preserving the current level of sanctions) they have to change the focus to something else. But it's easier to accuse then it is to prove guilt.

And another thing to think about. Turkey has been using humanitarian aid convoys to deliver weapons for some time. They even jailed some of their own journalists for investigating it. Could this convoy have been carrying things other then aid? Again, it seems unlikely, to me at least, that Russia would target a perfectly innocent aid convoy for no reason. It doesn't send a message, like bombing the US-backed rebel group did. It doesn't accomplish any military objectives. It creates considerable negative fallout. And to top it off, it costs resources to do it.

Yes this I see to be true. Difficult now to see what the US can do with so many ground forces from different nations on the scene, Turkey playing a vague role, and SA passive. The answer is they can do nothing. Just letting their air force loose would be a PR disaster. The air defenses that they would have to negotiate is another problem. Upsetting Russia another. The US as much as I do not want to accept the fact have been totally neutered in this conflict. I can not make up my mind whether they are seething or indifferent.
The US is far from neutered. However the US is not playing first fiddle, like it has in the recent past in other wars. And the US has a very messy policy, with no clear, realistic, and tangible objectives in mind. This is the biggest problem. Until the US can come up with some realistic strategic goals (not just the proverbial "democracy and prosperity for all") for the near to medium term, the US will continue to suffer when dealing with players who do have them.

To add to the complications, Shia forces from Iraq and now crossing the border to support the seige of Aleppo. This is going to do nothing to support the humanitarian cause or for that matter serve any US interest as far as I can see.

Iraqi militia fighters pour into Syria to support Assad | Fox News

It seems to me that Russia's plan is to force out the US from the whole axis from the Med to Iran as they slowly gain influence now with Iraq.
This is not news. Iraqi militias were airlifted to Syria by Russia, last year, to participate in iirc the defense of Damascus. They've since been provided with strategic and operational airlift by Russia to various fronts within Syria.

As for Iraq, the US lost a lot of ground when they held back those F-16s, as ISIS was pushing on Baghdad, and it took an emergency buy of Su-25s from Russia, and transfers from Iran, to give the Iraqis some decent fixed-wing CAS. Ever since then Russia has made gains in Iraq in proportion to its willingness to provide modern gear and equipment. There is even a coordination center in Baghdad with Russian and Iranian personnel, to work with the Iraqis on a combined war effort of sorts. That having been said, Iraq is a very long way from being a Russian client state. Russia has some interests there in the form of oil holdings, weapon sales, the strategic air route to Syria, and a joint effort in the war. However they have relatively little leverage to bring to bear on Iraq. It seems to me that Iraq is working with Russia because it's advantageous to the Iraqis.
 
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