Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Quite a few interesting stories in regards to the RAAF over the last week that I have missed.

C-130J's having Link 16 installed and used at Pitch Black.

Link 16 Operational on Australia’s C-130 Hercules | DefenseNews

And we are on our way to developing our own version of A2/AD strategy.

Australia Crafts Its Own Anti-Access, Area Denial Strategy   « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary

Between the work taking place in the Army, Navy, Air force and taking note in space the ADF is growing into one lean mean little machine.
 

rossfrb_1

Member
RAAF C-17 sighted at Nadi airport

Disembarking a plane at Nadi airport Fiji on Monday 29 August I spotted a C-17 across the tarmac.
A quick google hasn't revealed any further information.
Are there any sites that list non secret RAAF operations?
rb
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Disembarking a plane at Nadi airport Fiji on Monday 29 August I spotted a C-17 across the tarmac.
A quick google hasn't revealed any further information.
Are there any sites that list non secret RAAF operations?
rb
Could've been doing a NAVEX (Navigation Exercise). We get the RAAF BBJs, C17s, KC30s, E7As, etc., across this side of the ditch on NAVEXs regularly.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
A gentle reminder to all posting in this thread. The posting of one-liners is a violation of Rule 2 of the Forum Rules. On occasion, the Mod Team may tolerate a post with one-line; but not all the time.

For new members or members with less than 50 posts, if you post a one-liner in this thread, it will be deleted. Thank you for your attention.
 

Oberon

Member
Disembarking a plane at Nadi airport Fiji on Monday 29 August I spotted a C-17 across the tarmac.
A quick google hasn't revealed any further information.
Are there any sites that list non secret RAAF operations?
rb
Possibly just picking up or dropping off equipment, stores and personnel after the cyclone.
 
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VerySneaky

New Member
Bought from a consortium of Lockheed Martin as lead tenderer, with Pilatus and Hawker Pacific, not simply from Pilatus. I assume that the simulators and support will be sourced from L-M and Hawkers.

Australia To Buy PC-21 Trainers, Relocate Basic Training

oldsig

(edit for spelling)
Does anybody have any information regarding the impact of this on the Flight Screening Program (FSP) with specific regards to whether or not this screening will be shifted toward sim based selection or whether it will remain being conducted in a cockpit? It seems to me that it would be an enormous jump to place candidates with no flight experience in a PC-21...
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Does anybody have any information regarding the impact of this on the Flight Screening Program (FSP) with specific regards to whether or not this screening will be shifted toward sim based selection or whether it will remain being conducted in a cockpit? It seems to me that it would be an enormous jump to place candidates with no flight experience in a PC-21...
Flight screening is conducted on the CT-4B, not the PC-9 that the PC-21 is replacing.

PC-21 is for higher end training than the FSP covers...
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Flight screening is conducted on the CT-4B, not the PC-9 that the PC-21 is replacing.

PC-21 is for higher end training than the FSP covers...
I thought that as well AD but the ADF website says:

"The Pilatus PC-21 is the world’s most advanced pilot training aircraft. As part of the AIR 5428 Pilot Training System project, the PC-21 will replace Air Force’s current PC-9/A and CT-4B aircraft, and will be based at RAAF Base East Sale in Victoria and RAAF Base Pearce in Western Australia."

That suggests that the CT-4B will be gone!

Tas
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I thought that as well AD but the ADF website says:

"The Pilatus PC-21 is the world’s most advanced pilot training aircraft. As part of the AIR 5428 Pilot Training System project, the PC-21 will replace Air Force’s current PC-9/A and CT-4B aircraft, and will be based at RAAF Base East Sale in Victoria and RAAF Base Pearce in Western Australia."

That suggests that the CT-4B will be gone!

Tas
It does doesn't it? The Airforce Newspaper article on them says the same thing. It's operating enevelope is so wide it can replace CT-4B types whilst overlapping the low end of jet trainers' envelopes...

https://www.airforce.gov.au/Technology/Aircraft/PC-21/?RAAF-GJLNoXmi2JDW34j9ASNOMSQG/kuATXa+
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
It does doesn't it? The Airforce Newspaper article on them says the same thing. It's operating enevelope is so wide it can replace CT-4B types whilst overlapping the low end of jet trainers' envelopes...

https://www.airforce.gov.au/Technology/Aircraft/PC-21/?RAAF-GJLNoXmi2JDW34j9ASNOMSQG/kuATXa+
Despite what the RAAF says I will be amazed if at least some initial flight screening/initial training is not palmed out to civilian contract at some point in the future. Unless my memory is failing me (which is distinctly possible these days ;) ) I seem to recall that the airforce tried to go down the one trainer track in the late 1960s when the Macchi MB-326H was introduced and it didn't take long to realise that something simpler and less costly was needed for screening and initial flight training.
Tas
 

VerySneaky

New Member
Despite what the RAAF says I will be amazed if at least some initial flight screening/initial training is not palmed out to civilian contract at some point in the future. Unless my memory is failing me (which is distinctly possible these days ;) ) I seem to recall that the airforce tried to go down the one trainer track in the late 1960s when the Macchi MB-326H was introduced and it didn't take long to realise that something simpler and less costly was needed for screening and initial flight training.
Tas
Yeah it seems like a bold move. I spoke to some RAAF pilots on another board and they've indicated that the current intention is to move to sim based training for FSP and potentially some portion of the ab-initio flight training program (BFTS). At this point it's qualified as conjecture but I don't see much alternative if the RAAF are looking to move to a single platform trainer. Having trained as a pilot myself, the workload in a Cessna 152 can be difficult enough when just starting out without introducing the complexity of a turboprop. Will be interesting to see the outcome of this.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
there's been a growing emphasis on sim based training across the board, prob for the lasr 5 years there has been an increasing shift towards it - and various modern militaries, nor just Oz
 

rjtjrt

Member
All through jet/turboprop trainer has been a dream/fantasy since 60's.
It may work this time, but odds very much against it.
Modern sims better fidelity, but still major limitations. Very immersive but no G, motion sickness, fear, etc.. Fear can be induced in sim but not the same type, and sim can also breed risk taking attitude (invulnerability emboldens and reduces respect for the laws of nature and physics).
There almost certainly will be a grading aircraft and contract issued after a couple of years or so.
Sims are wonderful and can enhance a lot of things, but they have limits.
Yes I know about sim sickness, and sims used to treat real motion sickness.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
One thing I did find interesting near the beginning of the article was the comment about the reduction in per unit cost.

The report is suggesting a 30% drop from US$170m to US$115m (in Aussie dollars, at current exchange rate) down from A$222m to A$150m, pretty impressive reduction (if accurate of course!).

Sort of makes those possible extra three airframes look very attractive to confirm beyond the current approved 12.

And maybe (again if the reduction in price is accurate), it might also make it more attractive for our Kiwi cousins across the ditch to replace their P-3K's with a reasonable number of P-8A's too!!!
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
And maybe (again if the reduction in price is accurate), it might also make it more attractive for our Kiwi cousins across the ditch to replace their P-3K's with a reasonable number of P-8A's too!!!
Yes we have noticed that and two of us have been discussing amongst ourselves. Be interesting to see what the Triton cost will finally come down to.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Yes we have noticed that and two of us have been discussing amongst ourselves. Be interesting to see what the Triton cost will finally come down to.
Hi mate, yes good to see what's happening with the P-8A, and its always good to see a project being 'on time and on budget', but its very rare to see a project reported to being 'on time and below budget' too!!

Hopefully by the mid 2020's there are plenty of P-8A's residing on both sides of the ditch!!


As for Triton, couple of interesting reports this week, one the announcement that they have been granted "positive Milestone C low-rate initial production approval", all good news for the USN and RAAF.

Hopefully we see an announcement in the not too distant future about a more detailed procurement schedule for the RAAF.


But I also saw this too (could it mean cost down or up??), looks like the USN is planning to review Triton procurement numbers, yet again:

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...triton-procurement-after-test-and-dep-429907/

The original plan was to procure 70 Triton (2 prototypes + 68 production) airframes.

Twenty (20) airframes would be 'operational at any one time', and the remaining 48 production examples would be 'attrition' reserves (and that was based on an 'estimated' attrition rate of four airframes per 100,000 flight hours).

But then I read that due to improved reliability, the total numbers procured might be cut. And then a little while later it was confirmed that the full production run of 70 airframes would proceed.

Bit of a double edged sword, yes if it is found that attrition is going to be lower, great, probably don't need as many in the first place, but it probably also means that the 'unit' cost will go up rather than down due to a smaller production run.

But it they do cut numbers and the attrition rate ends up higher, then you end up with a short fall of airframes or have to start production back up again, sort of a dammed if you do, dammed if you don't, situation.

Which then brings it back to, how exactly is the RAAF intending to employ the planned seven (7) Triton airframes? How many operational at one time? And how many for attrition reserves? (It will be interesting to see if the RAAF will ever announce how the number of airframes will be utilised and how they will be split between operational and attrition).

If you look at the USN plan (as currently stands), it's roughly 1/3 of the fleet operational at one time, and 2/3 of the fleet for attrition, etc.

I wonder if the Australian Government is going to have an agreement with the USN for the provision of attrition replacements if required?

Sort of like back in the day when the 24 F-111C's were purchased, from what I remember from all those years ago, there was an agreement for up to 6 attrition replacements, which we took up with the four F-111A attrition airframes procured in the early 1980's.

Triton cost up or down? Time will tell!
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Not sure if Triton would benefit from a cost fall anywhere near that of the P-8. Read up on it and one of the key factor's in it's price falling is rather then building the standard civilian airliner then modifying it they build the actual P-8 frame from the get go (No modifications required later) which cut out a large chunk of unnecessary 'middle' production.

Aicraft such as the E-7's, MRTT's and KC-46's would benefit from such a buildstyle but not much else.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Not sure if Triton would benefit from a cost fall anywhere near that of the P-8. Read up on it and one of the key factor's in it's price falling is rather then building the standard civilian airliner then modifying it they build the actual P-8 frame from the get go (No modifications required later) which cut out a large chunk of unnecessary 'middle' production.

Aicraft such as the E-7's, MRTT's and KC-46's would benefit from such a buildstyle but not much else.
There is no doubt that the P-8A airframe has benefitted from it's commercial origins, eg, the 737 (but that's also been the case from day one of that program), I don't think anyone was suggesting that the same rate of cost reduction would also apply to Triton, cost reductions usually equate to efficiencies or increased production numbers, or a combination of both.

I think the question mark over Triton (and not suggesting anywhere near the reduction that is being reported with P-8A), is that rather than cost being 'stable' or slightly reduced, it could possible increase if there is a significant cut in planned procurement numbers.

It's one thing for the current price to based on X number of airframes planned to be produced (70 USN and 7 RAAF at this stage), it will be another thing if the USN ends up cutting the number of airframes by a substantial amount, prices would surely go up.

Either the production run is reduced to a shorter time frame, or the rate of production is slowed, both would result in either the component suppliers increasing costs (reduced number of repeat components), or the assembly costs would increase because of the lower rate of production.
 
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