War Against ISIS

gazzzwp

Member
It's pretty depressing when this is the best case scenario, the worst being that Russia was the one behind the strikes.

EDIT: It's also pretty cowardly. I'd understand a retaliation strike against American or western SoF training the "moderates" as payback but hitting an aid convoy intentionally is just foul.
If this is the case it underlines to me that the bitterness and anger between the two giants is reaching boiling point. Something will have to give soon. I fear the good people of Syria could be about to pay the price of decades of unresolved animosity that stretches back to the Cold War.
 

gazzzwp

Member
I just watched on Al Jazeera how some 2000 'Russian Mercenaries' currently just east of Aleppo are poised to launch an attack on the city after the intense incendiary bombing.

I cannot find any links anywhere to confirm this. Why would Russia use mercenaries rather than regular troops? Anyone know?
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I just watched on Al Jazeera how some 2000 'Russian Mercenaries' currently just east of Aleppo are poised to launch an attack on the city after the intense incendiary bombing.

I cannot find any links anywhere to confirm this. Why would Russia use mercenaries rather than regular troops? Anyone know?
Just a guess on my part, but probably provides a buffer against political backlash, both domestically and internationally, should anything go wrong.
 

chris

New Member
I just watched on Al Jazeera how some 2000 'Russian Mercenaries' currently just east of Aleppo are poised to launch an attack on the city after the intense incendiary bombing.

I cannot find any links anywhere to confirm this. Why would Russia use mercenaries rather than regular troops? Anyone know?
I don't know if there is any truth in this story but what makes you think that Russia pays them? If they are mercenaries they can be on anyone's payroll. Why not Assad's, Iran's or even China's if you like a good conspiracy theory.

Ex Russian military types would make ideal recruits for such a mercenary army, since they are already experienced on all the weapons used by the government side and can easily coordinate with Russian Air force.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Updates.

The SAA has begun a major counter-offensive in Hama province, where they lost ground to a rebel push at the same time as they counter-attacked in Aleppo.

https://aftershock.news/?q=node/437582

Massive bombings and artillery strikes are occurring in Aleppo, as Russia and the SAA bomb the rebel sections, while the rebels have intensified fire from various rocket, mortar, and missile systems. Fighting continues south-west of Aleppo, but without decisive results.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Èç êîíòðîëèðóåìûõ ïîâñòàíöàìè ðàéîíîâ Àëåïïî ñîîáùàþò î ìîùíåéøèõ çà ïîñëåäíèå ìåñÿöû àâèàóäàðàõ

Part of the text of the recent Russian-American deal has been released by the press, and Russia confirms it's authentic, but says it's only one part out of 5.

AP EXCLUSIVE: Text of Syria cease-fire deal
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Syria: Same New Zealand Line, No Security Council Progress?
22/9/2016

Author: Robert Ayson

Few observers would take issue with New Zealand’s latest criticisms of the international community’s failure to stem Syria’s civil conflict. Chairing a special meeting of the Security Council in New York, John Key has just been laying into that august assembly:

‘After more than five years of violence, Syria has become a byword for failure. Failure of the parties and their supporters to put peace, and the lives of innocent people ahead of self-interest and zero-sum politics. Failure to respond to the crisis early to prevent this tragedy. And a collective political failure, including by this Council, to do what must be done to end the conflict.’

This argument should come as no surprise. In the first instance, the Council’s membership has hardly been united in an urgent determination to quell the humanitarian suffering in Syria or to help resolve the conflict that is causing it. Secondly, Mr Key’s words are reminiscent of one of the arguments that New Zealand used in its quest to get onto the Council in the first place. Speaking at the UN in September 2014, Foreign Minister McCully argued that:

'In Syria and Iraq we see the truly frightening consequences when leadership, both internally and in the Security Council, has failed.'

From Wellington’s view, not much has changed in the lasy two years, a period that has coincided with New Zealand’s membership. It has been there, of course, with the limited time frame and limited leverage that all temporary members have to work with. And it is fair to say that Wellington attributes much of the blame to the permanent five whose veto power Mr McCully referred to last year as ‘the single largest cause of the UN Security Council being rendered impotent in the face of too many serious international conflicts’.
New Zealand’s Security Council experience in the 2015-16 term, and especially its frustrations over inaction on Syria, reminds all smaller powers of the inequality of the international system. But another challenge is highlighted when we consider Mr Key’s appeal to all parties that “no one will benefit from a continuation of this conflict. The Syrian Government, which bears responsibility for starting this war, cannot win”, he added. “Nor can the many others whose support is allowing the conflict to continue.”

But even if none of the parties believe they can win, this does not stop them from thinking that some advantage awaits for them if they resort to violence. This is a cardinal reason why neither Syria’s peace nor the alleviation of suffering, are principal objectives in this struggle for many participants. Certainly not for Assad, for whom regime survival comes well before peace. Certainly not for Mr Putin’s Russia, whose air-strikes in support of his Syrian ally signal Moscow’s ability to seize the international initiative from Washington. Certainly not for ISIS, for whom the continuation of violence is part of its political identity and its strategy. And even for the Obama Administration, violence has a place. After all while Washington was urging other parties to maintain the fragile ceasefire to allow humanitarian relief, especially in Aleppo, US airstrikes against ISIS targets continued, in one instance with unintended consequences.

That ceasefire, supported by New Zealand, was meant to allow the United States and Russia to coordinate airstrikes against extremists. This is about the management of violence, not its abolition. And in the same region, New Zealand’s training of Iraqi armed forces is designed to increase their fighting power, not reduce it. As its fight against ISIS continues, Iraq’s government is asking for more of this from New Zealand and over a longer period. This formula suggests that if peace is eventually to come to Iraq, more violence will be involved in the meantime.

These paradoxes are on acute display in today’s Middle East more than anywhere else on the planet. They mean that cooperation is going to be partial, that diplomacy will be intermixed with violence, and that the Security Council, will remain a necessary but often hamstrung feature of an imperfect and unequal international system. Statements from political leaders which imply that the Council can transcend these challenges may be well intended. But when these complaints are repeated in the face of obvious political realities they may become little more than grandstanding.
I think that this sums up the Syrian situation reasonably well and the Kiwi PM clearly states where the blame is. The Syrian govt started the war and the US and Russia through the use or the threat of the veto in the UN Security Council are preventing the UN from being able to do anything. The use of this veto power held by France, PRC, Russia, UK & USA for purely nationalistic political purposes is hamstringing the work of the Security Council and in the case of Syria is adding to the death, destruction, insecurity and misery. Unfortunately our PM is piddling into the wind thinking that the 5 permanent members of the Security Council will willing agree to restrict their use of the veto :( He knows it but someone has to start the ball rolling.
 
Last edited:

Toblerone

Banned Member
Regime-toppling Intervention and "state building" has proven disastrous in other similar situations so I don't understand why all this disappointment that they were vetoed out of direct intervention.

The reason that the war still drags on is the proliferation of very effective and practical weapons like ATGMs, preventing one side from winning. And of course sponsors of terrorism like Saudi Arabia providing funding to thousands of rebels.

Also, the statement alleges that regime survival and russian intervention are the reason for the continuation of the fighting. As if the regime stopped fighting then the war would end, this brought a smile to my face. This war isn't a revolution, it is not a regime vs rebels situation, it is a full-on sectarian conflict with a huge safe haven for global jihadism.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Regime-toppling Intervention and "state building" has proven disastrous in other similar situations so I don't understand why all this disappointment that they were vetoed out of direct intervention.

The reason that the war still drags on is the proliferation of very effective and practical weapons like ATGMs, preventing one side from winning. And of course sponsors of terrorism like Saudi Arabia providing funding to thousands of rebels.

Also, the statement alleges that regime survival and russian intervention are the reason for the continuation of the fighting. As if the regime stopped fighting then the war would end, this brought a smile to my face. This war isn't a revolution, it is not a regime vs rebels situation, it is a full-on sectarian conflict with a huge safe haven for global jihadism.
A real quick reply, if Assad had acquiesced to a form of semi democracy back in 2010 -11, he could have avoided all of this, remained in control and appeared to be the "good" guy. It would have mostly defused tensions within Syria and jihadists would not be there. But alas his ego is too big and brain to small for that.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
In its Euphrates Shield in northern Syria against Syrian rebels, Daesh and Kurds, by occupying Syrian territory, Turkey has apparently triggered Article Two of the 1949 Geneva Conventions aka Common Article 2.
Assuming Turkey is occupying northern Syria, Common Article 2 is triggered and, consequently, the entirety of the law of armed conflict is applicable. For Syrian and Turkish military members this means they have certain rights and obligations that only apply in an international armed conflict. Most importantly, they receive combatant immunity for many of their actions and prisoner of war status if captured. Conversely, they may be targeted without any specific conduct assuming they have not surrendered, been captured, or are otherwise hors de combat. Turkey’s occupation of northern Syria thus changes the legal status of the members of their respective armed forces.

For Turkey, immense responsibilities found in the Hague Regulation IV, the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949, Additional Protocol I to the 1949 Geneva Conventions and customary international law are assumed as the occupying power. Perhaps the most important, and daunting, obligations facing Turkey are found in Article 43 of Hague Regulation IV.

Article: Has Turkey Occupied Northern Syria?
After further reading of the article, I would presume that the same would apply for the area of Iraqi territory that the Turkish army are current ensconced on and refuse to leave even after the Iraqis have demanded them too.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
A real quick reply, if Assad had acquiesced to a form of semi democracy back in 2010 -11, he could have avoided all of this
Very true. It was avoidable. The protesters at first weren't asking for him to step down, this only came later when violence was used. It's interesting to speculate whether the heavy handed response was actually on the orders of Assad or the work of local Baath or military officials who took matters in their own hands. It's also interesting to speculate how Assad Senior would have handled things if he were still around. Perhaps he would have realised that times had changed and that using force on protesters would backfire. When faced with an insurgency by the Muslim Brotherhood, he did act tough however; Hama was razed to the ground and hardly anyone - in the region or outside - protested.

Assad Senior was of course a master at survival - at a time when Syria was facing Israel, was ostracised by most of the Arab world [Syria was the only Arab ally Iran had], was bogged down in Lebanon [he entered Lebanon to prevent the Christians from losing the civil war], had problems with his Soviet backers and was in the bad books of the U.S. [Kissinger and then Shultz found it hard to manipulate him to their advantage]; Assad Senior still managed to achieve most of his political objectives including preventing his enemies from isolating Syria. The biggest irony is that Assad Junior wasn't supposed to replace his father; he only became the heir in waiting when elder brother Bassel died in a car crash.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
A real quick reply, if Assad had acquiesced to a form of semi democracy back in 2010 -11, he could have avoided all of this, remained in control and appeared to be the "good" guy. It would have mostly defused tensions within Syria and jihadists would not be there. But alas his ego is too big and brain to small for that.
Absolutely right.

I get pissed off with the tinfoil hat wearers, conspiracy theorists, etc. who say the whole Syrian mess is the result of Qatari/Saudi/Kuwaiti/European/American meddling.

The reality is that Bashar Assad is a dictator who inherited a state from his father, who ruled it because of a military coup - & Bashar the ophthalmologist only inherited it because his brother Basil the charismatic paratrooper & graduate of a Soviet military academy, who was being groomed for the job, died before their father. Legitimacy? Zero. Suitability? Poor.

He's a member of a religious minority & has always favoured that minority in the allocation of power & money. That's stoked up a lot of resentment.

His father suppressed opposition by efficient oppression & unrestricted brutality. Bashar was less oppressive & less brutal, & some of his subjects made the mistake of thinking that this meant that he might be open to allowing a bit of democracy. His response was to revive his father's methods & use them on the democratic, secular opposition, thus alienating his potential allies against the religious extremists, & strengthening those who argued that the only way to change things was violent rebellion.

And we all know what happened.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
For me, another question that remains unanswered is just how strong Bashar's position was when the riots started? At present he's untouchable as he purged the party and military of any elements who would oppose him and many Syrians [including Sunnis and various ethnic minorities] have no choice but to back him as the alternative could be far worse. But in 2011 were there elements in the Baath party and the military who were waiting to see how he handled the situation and would have taken any lack of action as a sign that Bashar was weak?
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Good question, & hard to answer. I suspect that his position could have been weak. I don't think that he'd done anything to prove that he had any of his fathers skill at keeping control.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Regime-toppling Intervention and "state building" has proven disastrous in other similar situations
The U.S. from the start wanted to avoid ''state building'' both in Iraq and Afghanistan. It didn't want troops to perform the role and didn't want to commit to the immense resources needed for the job. In Kosovo [granted the circumstances were different compared to Iraq and Afghanistan] the needed resources were put in place and there was the political will. The result is that Kosovo got back on its feet pretty fast due to sufficient foreign troops, police trainers, NGOs and foreign funding - not many were willing to make the same commitment in Iraq and Afghanistan. Had the same resources been put in place in Iraq and Afghanistan things could have turned out differently. The sad part is that there were quite a few military people and experts who pointed out the mistakes being made; their leaders didn't listen.

There was this gagaland thinking amongst the political leadership that Iraq's oil revenues would be sufficient to get the country back on its feet again and little understanding of the Shia/Sunni divide in the country and how Saddam and his minions kept things together. A question we should contemplate on is whether IS could have gained such a strong hold in Iraq had there not been major sectarian issues in the country; issues resulting from the emergence as Shias as the dominant power and the civil war; both resulting from the U.S. invasion.

In Afghanistan there were never enough troops deployed to hold secured areas and never enough foreign police trainers to create an effective Afghan police force. Securing Kabul and a few other cities wasn't the answer as the key to defeating the Talibs was in the rural areas where the central government had little effective presence. On top of that, the Pentagon and State Department had different ideas as with regards to state building; as did various other countries who were involved.The result is that despite all the efforts aimed at defeating it; 15 years after the invasion; the Taliban is still a major player in the country.

Which brings us to Syria. Is there any plan as to what to do if Assad leaves prematurely or if his government collapses? Who will assume responsibility for preventing further bloodshed and helping the country get back on its feet again? Will the same countries who keep insisting Assad leaves [before IS is defeated] and who have put in so much efforts into defeating IS and helping the ''moderates'' be ready to step in? Lessons learnt from Afghanistan were not applied in Iraq. Will any lessons learnt from Iraq be applied to Syria? And lets not forget Libya.
 

Toblerone

Banned Member
Assad didn't leave in the darkest of times, I don't think he will leave now that the regime is in the best position in years. Especially in Damascus and Aleppo there is military progress and there have been some instances of rebels surrendering and being transported to other areas, taking advantage of Assad's law that pardons those who negotiate a surrender and lets them free to go to other areas.

The turks and their paramilitaries are suffering some setbacks though. Instead of moving towards Al Bab, they are losing some villages to ISIS.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Assad didn't leave in the darkest of times, I don't think he will leave now that the regime is in the best position in years. Especially in Damascus and Aleppo there is military progress and there have been some instances of rebels surrendering and being transported to other areas, taking advantage of Assad's law that pardons those who negotiate a surrender and lets them free to go to other areas.

The turks and their paramilitaries are suffering some setbacks though. Instead of moving towards Al Bab, they are losing some villages to ISIS.
That's because the Turks are avoiding commiting their own grunts to the fight, and instead rely on "rebels" backed by armor from a distance, and air from an altitude. The result is predictably bad, and they still end up losing tanks.The Turks want to avoid getting dragged into a quagmire, but at the same time they have some of the weakest proxies in this war. They're also badly short on allies. Not nominal allies but allies willing to support Turkish goals in this war. Prime example being that Russia has Hezbollah, Iran, Iraqi militias, and even Khazaris fighting in place of depleted and demotivated SAA units. The Turks don't have similar resources to draw on.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Update.

The SAA has begun a general assault on Aleppo. They've gained some ground around Aleppo citadel, and regime forces, together with al-Quds, have cleared the refugee camp in northern Aleppo. They're pushing hard elsewhere, but it's far from over. However without resupply, and under consistent pounding from air strikes, the rebels in Aleppo are basically doomed. They will eventually exhaust their means to continue fighting.

SAA forces are also making gains in Eastern Ghouta and Latakia, and over Latakia a Russian Su-25UB two-seater was seen.

Штурм Ðлеппо. 24.09.2016 - Colonel Cassad
Битва за Ðлеппо 23.09.2016 - Colonel Cassad
РоÑÑийÑкие Су-25 Ñнова в Сирии - bmpd
Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Ñèðèéñêàÿ àðìèÿ çà÷èñòèëà ëàãåðü áåæåíöåâ îêîëî Àëåïïî

Meanwhile in Iraq, ISIS has left Shikrat without a fight, after the Iraqi "Army" ramped up for a decisive assault. This leaves the road to Mosul open. However at the same time ISIS has shifted to using small mobile groups of fighters to hit Iraqi supply lines, instead of fighting pitched battles.

Ð’Ñе таки Шикрат - Берлога Бронемедведа
"ÐрмиÑ" Ирака едет брать город Шакрат. Или Шаркат. - Берлога Бронемедведа

A US drone shot down by ISIS over Shaddadi. At the same time a meeting of the "opposition government" in Deraa was hit by an ISIS suicide bomber, killing 12.

Сбитый БПЛРСШРпод Ðль-Шаддади - Colonel Cassad

In their retreat, ISIS appears to have destroyed much of the facilities at the Shaer gas field.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/men...-visual-confirmation-destruction-shaer-field/

Some materials on a chemical weapons attack in Aleppo. Warning, contains graphic images and video.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/men...l-attack-sukkari-district-aleppo-septeh-2016/

After continued negotiations between Lavrov and Kerry, no agreement has been reached, and the ceasefire will not be resumed at this time.

Лавров и Керри не Ñмогли договоритьÑÑ Ð¾ перемирии в Сирии - BBC РуÑÑÐºÐ°Ñ Ñлужба
 

gazzzwp

Member
Could the coalition impose a limited no fly zone over Aleppo on humanitarian grounds? Surely the US and the coalition have the fire power to do that; the moral aspect to it would surely attract the support of the civilised world?

If ever there was a time when the world needed strong and decisive leadership from the US it is now. I think the issue is so serious that Obama's entire reputation is at stake.
 
Top