War Against ISIS

gazzzwp

Member
The U.S. Ambassador to the UN has questioned why Russia has requested a meeting to discuss the strike; calling it a classic magician's sleight of hand to divert attention from what's happening elsewhere. She also points out that Russia has never requested an emergency meeting to discuss civilian deaths. The Russians on the other hand are insisting that if the U.S. had agreed to better coordination, that such a mistake would never have occurred.

US air raid on 'Syrian army post' sparks Russia tension - News from Al Jazeera

The US and Russia have less influence in Syria than they think | The Independent

If the ceasefire in Syria is to hold, this is what needs to happen | The Independent
Let's face it now that Rebel positions have been targeted again the cease fire agreement is all but finished. Where things go from here is anyone's guess. I wouldn't be surprised if Russia's air campaign steps up dramatically now that they have been in the field for over a year with let's face it very little to show for it.

It wouldn't surprise me if things escalate now to a very serious degree. I hope I'm wrong.
 

gazzzwp

Member
Let's face it now that Rebel positions have been targeted again the cease fire agreement is all but finished. Where things go from here is anyone's guess. I wouldn't be surprised if Russia's air campaign steps up dramatically now that they have been in the field for over a year with let's face it very little to show for it.

It wouldn't surprise me if things escalate now to a very serious degree. I hope I'm wrong.
Suspicions confirmed. Syria announcing what we had feared:

Aid trucks hit by air strikes as Syria says ceasefire over | Reuters
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Suspicions confirmed. Syria announcing what we had feared:

Aid trucks hit by air strikes as Syria says ceasefire over | Reuters
Apparently the agreement on the ceasefire required the United States to provide a list of groups that are vetted as moderates, with contact information for each group's leader, and their exact location. It also required the rebels who wished to be part of the ceasefire to physically separate themselves from al-Nusra. Something that's basically impossible to begin with, meaning the entire deal was never real. Had the deal been held up and implemented, al-Nusra and a few other powerful jihadi groups would be left without some of their allies, and still be fighting, while forcing the US-backed groups to either stand-by and watch their extremist allies destroyed, or join in, and thus forfeit the ceasefire. Basically the message here is that no ceasefire will ever be provided by Russia or Syria if that ceasefire is merely a means for the rebels to regroup and reinforce. Any ceasefire is going to automatically exclude al-Nusra, Jaesh al-Islam, and Ashrar ash Sham, requiring either the FSA to exercise an extraordinary control over their sub-units in order to comply, or be mostly fictitious to begin with.

In other words, any rebel group not currently part of the "evil 3" has the option of surrendering, switching sides to the regime (which a few militias have done) or stand by and be rendered irrelevant by the defeat of the stronger extremist groups. Unsurprisingly, most choose neither, and simply keep fighting together with the jihadis.

EDIT: To be honest, I strongly suspect the only purpose of the ceasefire was to allow the rebels to regroup, resupply, and reinforce, after their recent defeat in Aleppo. And in fact there are reports right now of another attempt to attack towards Aleppo around 1070 and the artillery base, by al-Nusra. It explains why the US agreed to a deal that was basically impossible to fullfill, and why the US was so opposed to the deal being made public, because they were hoping (and still likely do) to blame Russia for the failure of the ceasefire.
 

Mig-29M2

New Member
Video: Turkish Army M60T Sabra, ACV-15, Otokar Cobra, Kirpi MRAP in Al Rai, Syria

The media outlet of the Revolutionary Forces of Syria has released footage showing Turkish Army M60T Sabra tanks, ACV-15 infantry fighting vehciles, Otokar Cobra light armored vehicles, and Kirpi MRAPs near Al Rai, Syria.

The footage is claimed to be taken as the Turkish Army and the forces fighting along its side are attempting to push south.

Video: Turkish Army M60T Sabra, ACV-15, Otokar Cobra, Kirpi MRAP in Al Rai, Syria
 

Toblerone

Banned Member
This whole ordeal shows that the opposition is dominated by radical islamists. Now I expect the regime to continue its military successes, this is the only way towards an end to the conflict imo.

The USA suffered the embarrassment of wanting the terms to be kept secret and obviously having almost no control over the situation, bombing the regime soldiers who are fighting surrounded by ISIS, while back at home there was a string of ISIS-inspired attacks, getting thrown out of a town and ridiculed by turkish-backed "FSA" fighters. Meanwhile Israel is left to its schemes, providing medical support to sunni radicals and air support whenever they lob a couple of shells towards empty israeli territory.

The jihadists may have regrouped and starting another attack to break the siege of Aleppo but the regime and the russian detachment also regrouped and will extract a heavy toll through air power. I believe these heavy rebel operations first against Castello road, then breaking the siege, then being pushed out and now trying to break the siege again ... are accelerating their defeat in the long term.

EDIT:

I wouldn't be surprised if Russia's air campaign steps up dramatically now that they have been in the field for over a year with let's face it very little to show for it.
Little to show for it? They turned the tide around in a big way. The regime was crumbling... USA have been forced to push for ceasefires each time there is light at the end of the tunnel, it happened when the Azaz corridor was closed, remember? They try to throw a spanner in the works whenever the regime is being successful, so does Israel (which is apparently exempt by any international law or media scrutiny) and the Saudi Arabia and co who have filled Syria with US-made TOW weapons and paying for islamists' salaries.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Little to show for it? They turned the tide around in a big way. The regime was crumbling... USA have been forced to push for ceasefires each time there is light at the end of the tunnel, it happened when the Azaz corridor was closed, remember? They try to throw a spanner in the works whenever the regime is being successful, so does Israel (which is apparently exempt by any international law or media scrutiny) and the Saudi Arabia and co who have filled Syria with US-made TOW weapons and paying for islamists' salaries.
Let's be a little careful about throwing allegations around and also be mindful of the rule regarding politics. I am very aware of the situation in Syria and all the major players in this tragedy have not covered themselves in glory. They all have the brown smelly stuff stuck to them and innocent blood on their hands. It's just the degree that is different. In the case of nation states I am meaning the political elite.
 

Toblerone

Banned Member
Let me expand a little so my post doesn't seem like just allegations. Israel has been bombing targets in Syria on its own accord. The israelis admit the attacks and violating the syrian airspace. Also, about the medical support, there is evidence

Video shows Israeli commandos save Islamic militants from the Syrian warzone | Daily Mail Online

The USA is scrambling for negotiations and a ceasefire each time there is a shift on the ground, like the Azaz corridor being closed, the siege of Aleppo etc. It has become blatant :D

Saudi support against the regime and the attempted genocide of shias is widely accepted as the truth. I will post this wiki article with its sources:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabian_support_to_Syrian_Opposition_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War

The usage of USA-made ATGM is well documented in countless videos.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BGM-71_TOW#2011_Syrian_Civil_War
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Months ago Vice News had footage of rebels who made it across the Golan receiving medical treatment in Israel. No doubt, the IDF has been active over the skies of Syria but who has benefited? Were the strikes aimed at improving Israel's security or have they hurt IS and Al Nusra? From an Israeli perspective; Assad remaining in power is the better option as Israel knows where its stands with Assad. A post Assad government, one that is democratic, might pose certain problems for Israel in that it will renounce the use of any violence against Israel but will demand the whole of the Golan back.

If ones makes the argument that Russian strikes haven't achieved much or have ''very little to show for it''; than what have Western strikes achieved? Western strikes have been effective at preventing IS from advancing and have severely degraded its ability to operate in the open like it use to do. Russian strikes have also been effective and had it not been for Russian strikes; Assad would have lost more ground. Nobody was under the illusion that air strikes by themselves would have led to IS's defeat. Now if only all this military action can be followed up with a political solution that will bring peace and isolate IS and what was formerly As Nusra - easier said than done as it involves the cooperation of several countries and their proxies.
 

gazzzwp

Member
Little to show for it? They turned the tide around in a big way. The regime was crumbling... USA have been forced to push for ceasefires each time there is light at the end of the tunnel, it happened when the Azaz corridor was closed, remember? They try to throw a spanner in the works whenever the regime is being successful, so does Israel (which is apparently exempt by any international law or media scrutiny) and the Saudi Arabia and co who have filled Syria with US-made TOW weapons and paying for islamists' salaries.
The conflict seems far more violent one year on. Aid convoys getting bombed, more and more examples of chemical attacks, and Turkey involved to a much greater degree in an increasingly unclear situation, with the possibility of the US taking a much bigger role due to conflicting objectives causing greater and greater animosity.

The fact that the war is still raging and an outcome ever more remote means to me at least that their investment in men equipment and money at a time when they can ill afford the expenditure has yielded nothing.

Regarding showcasing weapons; the dreaded SAM's have never been used, and virtually all they have demonstrated is cruise missiles, some of which according to the US fell hundreds of miles short, and the ones that did hit made little difference to anything.

They have arguably saved the Assad regime but at what cost and what overall goal?

No wonder Russia is frustrated. Looking at this purely objectively it amounts to very little.

Edit to add: Any new player entering the battle zone is only likely to make the situation worse. This objective assessment is not meant to be targeted against any one party.
 
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STURM

Well-Known Member
They have arguably saved the Assad regime but at what cost and what overall goal?
The same question can be asked of the West. What have they achieved after all the efforts made? The so called ''moderates'', which they placed all their hopes on have been sidelined by IS and their goal of replacing Assad seems more and more elusive. Are the 'moderates'' [some of whom were not as ''moderate'' as portrayed] any closer to defeating IS? After so long, is the West or the U.S. any closer to achieving its political objectives? There will be no political settlement without Russia's participation.

No wonder Russia is frustrated. Looking at this purely objectively it amounts to very little.
Russia may be frustrated but so are the backers of the FSA. The Russians can look back with satisfaction and say that Assad is still there and the Americans - who initially refused to deal with the Russians over Syria - have been forced to acknowledge that Russia is a player in the region and has a positive role to play.
 

Toblerone

Banned Member
Gazzzwp where do you get your information? Wherever it is, you are missing the big picture and are worrying about Russia's economy, the rise of violence in the conflict (lol) and saying that this is a quagmire :D

Find a map of the conflict from the start of the russian intervention (November 2015?) and compare it to a current map. Then you will understand which way this is going and why the forces that want a weak and easily manipulated Syria that is not a russian ally are crying about humanitarian situations every time the situation on the ground is contrary to their interests.

Also, the only proven chemical attacks (according to western organizations) have been perpetrated by terrorists, don't muddle the waters with stuff like that, the death toll is nothing compared to the indiscriminate bombing that the syrian airforce performs regularly. Dead dropping barrel bombs from high above. But I guess that doesn't shock the readers as much as chemical attacks...
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Gazzzwp where do you get your information? Wherever it is, you are missing the big picture and are worrying about Russia's economy, the rise of violence in the conflict (lol) and saying that this is a quagmire :D

Find a map of the conflict from the start of the russian intervention (November 2015?) and compare it to a current map. Then you will understand which way this is going and why the forces that want a weak and easily manipulated Syria that is not a russian ally are crying about humanitarian situations every time the situation on the ground is contrary to their interests.

Also, the only proven chemical attacks (according to western organizations) have been perpetrated by terrorists, don't muddle the waters with stuff like that, the death toll is nothing compared to the indiscriminate bombing that the syrian airforce performs regularly. Dead dropping barrel bombs from high above. But I guess that doesn't shock the readers as much as chemical attacks...
What makes you think that Syria as Russia's ally is not easy to manipulate? The real difference isn't whether they're easy to manipulate but who gets to do the manipulating.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The conflict seems far more violent one year on. Aid convoys getting bombed, more and more examples of chemical attacks, and Turkey involved to a much greater degree in an increasingly unclear situation, with the possibility of the US taking a much bigger role due to conflicting objectives causing greater and greater animosity.

The fact that the war is still raging and an outcome ever more remote means to me at least that their investment in men equipment and money at a time when they can ill afford the expenditure has yielded nothing.

Regarding showcasing weapons; the dreaded SAM's have never been used, and virtually all they have demonstrated is cruise missiles, some of which according to the US fell hundreds of miles short, and the ones that did hit made little difference to anything.

They have arguably saved the Assad regime but at what cost and what overall goal?

No wonder Russia is frustrated. Looking at this purely objectively it amounts to very little.

Edit to add: Any new player entering the battle zone is only likely to make the situation worse. This objective assessment is not meant to be targeted against any one party.
They've demonstrated a lot more then that. They deployed and sustained fairly intense combat operations (look at initial NATO commentary about the Russian optempo in late '15 early '16). They've demonstrated combat use of a large number of new weapon systems, from the T-90 tanks, to the Su-30/34/35 fighter family, Mi-28NM, Mi-35M, and Ka-52 helos, Uran-9 mineclearing robots, Iskander missile systems, extensive combat use of multiple UAV types, new optical recon satellites... the list goes on. They've also gained valuable experience in deploying and employing a large variety of troops overseas. This sort of expeditionary deployment is new for Russia, and a major improvement over their ability to do similar things 5 years ago.

None of this means they've won, or even will win, in any meaningful sense, but they have accomplished some things, including keeping Assad in power, ensuring that Russia remains a key player in the Middle East, breaking out of the efforts to isolate Russia after the Ukraine mess, and gaining considerable experience in expeditionary warfare. And, of course, they have their Mediterranean base. Is it worth it? Time will tell.
 

gazzzwp

Member
Thanks for your views on my last post everyone.

Russia now claiming that the destroyed convoy 'caught fire'.

Russia says Syrian aid convoy caught fire, was not shot up | Reuters

Kerry rejecting this outright at the security council meeting. The US claiming that two SU-24's seen over the convoy at the time of the attack:

Russian aircraft believed to hit Syria convoy, US officials say

What do people here feel? What is the most likely scenario? I see on RT Russia has begun counter claims stating that a Predator Drone was seen over the area.

https://www.rt.com/news/360165-us-drone-syria-russia/
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Until an independent body is allowed to investigate the incident and receives the full cooperation of Syria, Russia and the U.S. we'll probably never know what really happened : both the U.S. and Russia will continue to claim that that their version of events is the truth and will continue to trade blame. A key to salvaging the ceasefire and prevent Russian/U.S. relations from worsening might be in a U.S. proposal to ground all aircraft in northern Syria. The question is how much influence does Russia really have over Syria and what will Russia do if the Syrians continue to fly their aircraft? IS to be sure will be celebrating if Russian/U.S. relations suffer due to the strike on the convoy.

[The US-Russian Ceasefire In Syria Has Broken Down, But Who Is At Fault?]
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...broken-down-but-who-is-at-fault-a7316756.html
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Thanks for your views on my last post everyone.

Russia now claiming that the destroyed convoy 'caught fire'.

Russia says Syrian aid convoy caught fire, was not shot up | Reuters

Kerry rejecting this outright at the security council meeting. The US claiming that two SU-24's seen over the convoy at the time of the attack:

Russian aircraft believed to hit Syria convoy, US officials say

What do people here feel? What is the most likely scenario? I see on RT Russia has begun counter claims stating that a Predator Drone was seen over the area.

https://www.rt.com/news/360165-us-drone-syria-russia/
I would safely ignore RT. Even if they're right, it will be by accident.

Here's the UAV video Russia published, on the convoy, and at least one rebel technical accompanying it earlier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUMJ2vm4vgU

CITeam seems fairly convinced that Russia and Syria both hit the convoy (though it's not really clear how they got there, barrel bomb evidence does point to SyAAF but OFABs could also be used by them). There is also UAV footage showing that Russia had a decent idea of where the convoy was headed. It doesn't look good, though I'll wait to see the MoD response before coming to my personal conclusion.

EDIT: A Russian Min-Def spokesman just gave the Predator drone story to a newspaper. They're claiming it was present in the area and it took off from Incirlik airbase in Turkey.

http://classic.newsru.com/russia/21sep2016/predator.html

EDIT2: The UN just changed their statement from "airstrikes" to "attacks".

UN said:
But the U.N. revised a statement to remove the phrase "air strikes" and replace it with references to unspecified "attacks". U.N. humanitarian spokesman Jens Laerke said the original reference to air strikes was probably a drafting error, saying the U.N. was not in a position to determine if they were air strikes but was sure the convoy was "attacked."
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-idUSKCN11Q1NR
 
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Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The Syrians probably hit the convoy in retaliation for the bombing of SAA troops at Deir-ez-zor and as usual the Russians are bringing up a multitude of stories and spins in order to muddy the waters [we didn't even know where it was (at the red cross/crescent station...), there was a pickup with a mortar nearby (where does the drone footage comes from if you don't know where it was?), there were no Syrian or Russian aircraft above (again, drone footage? And parts of OFABs.), there was an allied UAV over the convoy (and...?), etc...].

We have seen the same pattern at the MH shootdown over Ukraine or with the green men in Crimea.

Just drown the news in false stories and lies. The idea that everybody lies and everything is grey then finds enough traction...
 

Toblerone

Banned Member
Islamic State may have used chemical weapon on U.S., Iraqi troops -CNN | Reuters


A worring sign if found to be true, how would the west react if this becomes the norm?
There have been many chemical attacks already, going back years. Some are confirmed to have been perpetrated by islamist factions, no regime use is confirmed. According to the western official investigations that were published. You just read about the attacks when it concerns US troops (even if it was basically inert/useless) or when trying to pin it to the regime (even when they cannot prove it). And when the media decides to make you agitated about some supposed escalation in the conflict, heh.

Anyway, what reaction would you expect in this specific case of ISIS use? Bomb them ... more? :D
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The Syrians probably hit the convoy in retaliation for the bombing of SAA troops at Deir-ez-zor and as usual the Russians are bringing up a multitude of stories and spins in order to muddy the waters [we didn't even know where it was (at the red cross/crescent station...), there was a pickup with a mortar nearby (where does the drone footage comes from if you don't know where it was?), there were no Syrian or Russian aircraft above (again, drone footage? And parts of OFABs.), there was an allied UAV over the convoy (and...?), etc...].

We have seen the same pattern at the MH shootdown over Ukraine or with the green men in Crimea.

Just drown the news in false stories and lies. The idea that everybody lies and everything is grey then finds enough traction...
It's pretty depressing when this is the best case scenario, the worst being that Russia was the one behind the strikes.

EDIT: It's also pretty cowardly. I'd understand a retaliation strike against American or western SoF training the "moderates" as payback but hitting an aid convoy intentionally is just foul.
 
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