New Zealand Army

MrConservative

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
RegR said:
In saying that we have obviously had a stirling run out of the mercedes brand so euro still has it's reputation but still too early to tell if the MANs can carry the torch just yet.
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When we bought the Mercedes kit for the NZ Army back in the early 1980's they were the last word in over engineered built to last quality. That was the golden era of their production history for both cars and trucks. I am more familiar with the cars - the W123, W124, W126 and W201 in many ways were too good, too well put together, lasted too long - the Paul Bracq - Bruno Sacco era. Then the accountants took over, and the design engineers lost their primacy and the company stated producing absolute tat to a price in the late 1990s and early-mid 2000's and the trucks were also not as robust. They have got their act better in recent years (though they look ugly) but they probably will never get back to the heights of the 'Made in West Germany' era. That said MAN still have that conservative engineering first mentality so their is hope that they can keep the old standards up.
 
ngatimozart

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
MrConservative said:
When we bought the Mercedes kit for the NZ Army back in the early 1980's they were the last word in over engineered built to last quality. That was the golden era of their production history for both cars and trucks. I am more familiar with the cars - the W123, W124, W126 and W201 in many ways were too good, too well put together, lasted too long - the Paul Bracq - Bruno Sacco era. Then the accountants took over, and the design engineers lost their primacy and the company stated producing absolute tat to a price in the late 1990s and early-mid 2000's and the trucks were also not as robust. They have got their act better in recent years (though they look ugly) but they probably will never get back to the heights of the 'Made in West Germany' era. That said MAN still have that conservative engineering first mentality so their is hope that they can keep the old standards up.
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I was working in DEFHQ, in Wellington back in 1981 when the Mogs were first announced as being acquired. They had a film that they showed and even though I wasn't involved in the project, nor even Army, was invited for a showing of said movie. They sure beat ye ancient Bedford 4x4 RL and the even more ancient trucks that the RNZAF were operating. With the RLs it got to the point where if they had to buy a new tyre for them they applied to the Treasury to write the vehicle off because the tyre was worth more than the vehicle. Didn't get a ride in a Mog until I joined the Navy 9 years later. I banged out of the RNZAF before the Mogs achieved FOC. The Mogs were an excellent acquisition for NZDF and IMHO you would have been hard pressed to have got something better.
 
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RegR

Well-Known Member
Agreed the mogs, and even the 2228s, have left quite big shoes to fill and yes todays versions have lost some of that "quality" vs technology so hopefully the the MANs can pull their weight so to speak.

Would have been exciting times back in the 80s as a few kit projects came online and going from an RL bedford to a unimog would have been like stepping literally into the future in comparison.
 
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KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
It's interesting looking at the heavy truck fleet in NZ, along with Australia it must be the most diverse in the world, we have all the major European and Japanese players along with most of the Americans represented in our market. The expertise is here in NZ to support pretty much anything the govt decides to purchase.
 
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40 deg south

Well-Known Member
RegR said:
Agreed the mogs, and even the 2228s, have left quite big shoes to fill and yes todays versions have lost some of that "quality" vs technology so hopefully the the MANs can pull their weight so to speak.

Would have been exciting times back in the 80s as a few kit projects came online and going from an RL bedford to a unimog would have been like stepping literally into the future in comparison.
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Don't want to get over-optimistic, but will people look back on the current period in a similar light? New trucks, new uniforms, complete replacement of the small arms fleet, likely upgrade of the LAVs.... Anything else?

The navy will also have a busy period around 2020, with both frigates back from refit, and three new vessels entering the fleet in (hopefully) a short space of time.
 
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RegR

Well-Known Member
kiwipatriot69 said:
I wonder if the new funding for NZDF will mean more of a commitment to to middle east in general,or if this means a draw down of personnel there while USA takes our place.Given how stretched our forces are now,how many observers do we have in the Sinai?
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The US are not replacing us in Sinai, this type of training happens every year and the kiwis conduct this training not only for them but the other nations involved in the MFO. Specific training for the americans has been conducted stateside for the past few years to streamline (as they have the largest contingent) meaning they can get on with the job more quickly once in country and hit the ground running.

There are around 26 pers on this particular op including drivers, trainers and support so not exactly a personnel drain on our forces. There is quite a good an informative page on the multinational force and observers giving a good overveiw on NZs and other countries current and past commitments and roles within this unique mission.
 
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RegR

Well-Known Member
40 deg south said:
Saab Receives Order from New Zealand for Tactical Engagement Simulation System

Saab Wins New Zealand's Tactical Engagement Simulation System Contract

New simulation system on the way, courtesy of SAAB. Presumably this is being funded out of the $1.7 billion base regeneration plan announced a week or so back.

No indication of cost or where it is being installed.
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I'm pretty sure TESS is the personal sim (going off the current system) ie IW weapon pointers, body receptors so is more the individual mobile system to conduct more realistic training (think laser tag) therefore does not need to be installed as such rather issued out where and when needed.

Could either be a replacement, improvement or expansion as there are various types, personal, vehicle, aircraft etc all able to be interconnected.
 
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Novascotiaboy

Active Member
The DWP stated that a refresh or replacement for the current LAV force with increased protection is a key enabler of the army.

If the LAV is upgraded to the current Canadian version that would be fine but what are the prospects for something completely different?

With the JATF a reality could a tracked amphibian have a place such as the Bronco?
 
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kiwipatriot69

Active Member
Novascotiaboy said:
The DWP stated that a refresh or replacement for the current LAV force with increased protection is a key enabler of the army.

If the LAV is upgraded to the current Canadian version that would be fine but what are the prospects for something completely different?

With the JATF a reality could a tracked amphibian have a place such as the Bronco?
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Had just looked at that, yes seat capacity for up to 16, including crew, and swimming capability at 5km /hr,good IED protection, weighs 15 ton.But it only carries a 7.62 machine gun,as a main gun, so underpowered whereas Nz army wants an increase in firepower, amour.

Im a fan of Singapore military tech though, id like to see Bionix 2 tracked IFV as a replacement myself, 30mm gun turret or similar, but there is still plenty of life left in Lav 3, and a upgrade to Lav 6.0 standard would be next best thing. I wish we took defence as seriously as they do.
 
ngatimozart

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
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kiwipatriot69 said:
Had just looked at that, yes seat capacity for up to 16, including crew, and swimming capability at 5km /hr,good IED protection, weighs 15 ton.But it only carries a 7.62 machine gun,as a main gun, so underpowered whereas Nz army wants an increase in firepower, amour.

Im a fan of Singapore military tech though, id like to see Bionix 2 tracked IFV as a replacement myself, 30mm gun turret or similar, but there is still plenty of life left in Lav 3, and a upgrade to Lav 6.0 standard would be next best thing. I wish we took defence as seriously as they do.
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Well, actually if you want to go to a new platform look at what the USMC are doing and go with their choice. They have shortlisted two platforms, the BAE Iveco Super AV and the SAIC Terrex II for their amphibious armored personnel carrier programme. IMHO, either of those two with an unmanned 30mm or 35mm turret would be ideal for the NZ Army, especially the Amphibious Task Force component. If I had to chose between the two I would go with the Super AV. Regarding the current NZ LAVs if they were replaced by either of the above, I would keep some for the artillery and use them to tow and support the towed guns. The vehicles would protect the gunners. Just an idea.
 
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Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
ngatimozart said:
Well, actually if you want to go to a new platform look at what the USMC are doing and go with their choice. They have shortlisted two platforms, the BAE Iveco Super AV and the SAIC Terrex II for their amphibious armored personnel carrier programme. IMHO, either of those two with an unmanned 30mm or 35mm turret would be ideal for the NZ Army, especially the Amphibious Task Force component. If I had to chose between the two I would go with the Super AV. Regarding the current NZ LAVs if they were replaced by either of the above, I would keep some for the artillery and use them to tow and support the towed guns. The vehicles would protect the gunners. Just an idea.
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I would like to see a tracked component as well as wheeled, While wheeled has a speed advantage, in NZ conditions of steep and often soft terrain, tracked has a decided mobility advantage. An upgrade in firepower is always helpful, as I think the 25mm is on the lower end of what is acceptable. So my fantasy would be to upgrade say 60 to 70 LAV's and acquire 24-36 tracked IFV with a 35 to 40mm Gun. While this would increase maintenance requirements. It would significantly increase mobility and fire power.
 
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Lucasnz

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Rob c said:
I would like to see a tracked component as well as wheeled, While wheeled has a speed advantage, in NZ conditions of steep and often soft terrain, tracked has a decided mobility advantage. An upgrade in firepower is always helpful, as I think the 25mm is on the lower end of what is acceptable. So my fantasy would be to upgrade say 60 to 70 LAV's and acquire 24-36 tracked IFV with a 35 to 40mm Gun. While this would increase maintenance requirements. It would significantly increase mobility and fire power.
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While I would like to see an a tracked component NZ is more likely to go down the upgrade path. The army indicates this on their website. The rebalancing of the LAV is likely to see a reduction in the 25mm variants in favour of a more diverse fleet similar in capability to the M113's NZ use to operate. Looking back at the historical capabilities of the NZDF when the army was larger in the early 1980's the total number of armoured vehicles, prior to the Scorpion acquisition was about 77 (Of which 72 were M113). I'm of two minds as to a whether the fleet should be reduced in size, I think there are valid arguments both for and against.
 
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kiwipatriot69

Active Member
I wouldnt want the Lav numbers to drop either, id rather something similar to Rob C's idea ,upgrade 60 to seventy odd Lavs to Canadian Lav upgrade standard, more horsepower, better mine,small arms protection regards to armour, and a 30mm gun. Except turn the other thirty or so into command , ambulance,support ect. Second thoughts on ditching them completely, as regards to JATF, a third Frigate for escort i think we need to find money for!
 
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Novascotiaboy

Active Member
A refresh of 40 or so LAV's to Canadian 6.0 with a larger caliber main gun would work with additional units repurposed as amb, gun tractor, CP and engineer support without the 25 mm turret. I would also suggest possibly creating a number of basic APC without the 25 mm turret similar to the US Stryker for transport to lower intensity situations, plus would then be C130 transportable. Canada did this type of transition with its Bison 8x8's to support the LAV3 fleet with support elements.

My suggestion of the Bronco, besides being amphibious and tracked, it's also air transportable by C130 sized aircraft.

Could Bushmasters and Hawkei's be a possibility for cooperation with ADF's?
 
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kiwi in exile

Active Member
I have long been a fan of the bronco and would love to see them in NZ service. I like the idea of an amphibious armoured vehicle, and the extra mobility of a tracked platform, especially in disaster ravaged pacific islands/SE Asia. In terms of armament, with the advances in RWS there are heaps of options.

Those interested in LAV upgrades should look at recent issues of Defence Technology Review. There are heaps of articles regarding the ADFs plans to adopt new armoured vehicles. From memory the LAV 6.0 is out of contention, so that kinda rules out NZDF buying into an ADF upgrade program. Lots of info about whats available in the market, pros/cons of different platforms, manned vs unmanned turrets, tracked vs wheeled etc. All relevant of course to NZs potential LAV upgrades.

Tracked vs wheeled has been discussed here before way back.
I think the advice from more knowledgeable forum members was that wheeled platforms (LAV etc) are faster and can get across 90% of where they need to be, and speed around the rest. And Pacific Islands have adequate road structure. Therefore, there is little point adopting a tracked system. Apologies if I have misrepresented anyones comments. From memory, from reading DTR other advantages of wheels are cheaper to run, quicker to repair, smoother ride and better comfort. On the other hand the Brits seemed happy with the performance and mobility of their Broncos in Afghanistan. And although we are focused on the local this hasnt stopped us borrowing hummers and sending LAVs further afield, where both plafroms had limitations (protection and mobility respectivly)


Plus there is always this option:
https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/...2012-gdls-introduces-tracked-stryker-concept/ ;)

Regarding NZ having 'excess' LAVs I'm sure I have read that LAV III's can be upgraded to LAV 6.0. This may help us market the 30 or so LAVs we have in storage that we have tried to sell beforen(to Chile from memory).

In my mind, a replacement for the LOVs is more urgent.
 
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kiwi in exile

Active Member
Novascotiaboy said:
My suggestion of the Bronco, besides being amphibious and tracked, it's also air transportable by C130 sized aircraft.

Could Bushmasters and Hawkei's be a possibility for cooperation with ADF's?
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wasn't there talk of potentailly getting a handful of bushmasters (and supacat HMV's) for the special forces. Are there any updates on this?

ADF special forces are also getting Supacats with intergrated RWS and javelins
KONGSBERG's PROTECTOR RWS - Highlighting Javelin Missile capabilities at Eurosatory 2016 - Kongsberg Gruppen
 
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Novascotiaboy

Active Member
There were pictures of Prince Harry I believe in a Polaris MRazor UTV last year that was being trailed by NZDF. Was the type purchased? Canadian Army just announced a trial purchase of 36 plus trailers for distribution to the three primary army bases. Were these intended only for the SAS or for general army utility?

With a LAV 3 upgrade to main armament would this not cause supply problems as 25 mm is also a navy standard as well? Would this change by army be viewed as an opportunity to up gun the navy. The naval version serves as a CIWS on Royal Danish navy frigates. Very advanced ammunition coupled with a high rate of fire. I would imagine commonality with ADF would be a consideration on this change at the very least.

Germany / Switzerland 35 mm/1000 Millennium
 
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