After years of appeasement Erdogan has been emboldened to a dangerous degree. His actions and stance against Russia (previously), the USA, european countries etc are not what they should be. He needs to be brought in line before it's too late. He is a dangerous opportunist, I think he is in way over his head. And he is doing his country a great disservice.
2016 Turkish coup d'état
- Thread starter Weazel
- Start date
And who's line would that be? What right do we have to interfere in the internal affairs of another state? It is against international law. Is he doing his country a disservice? Maybe not. He is bringing the military into line and making them answerable to the civilian government, not the other way around. He has the support of the people and that's what counts. We may not like his politics but it does not give us a right to interfere. However having said that, there are some concerning implications in his current actions for the fight against Daesh.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Hitler had the the support of Germans in the the late 1930s and the world minded its own business. Can't say that worked out very well. Erdogan is no Hitler but he will be a problem and Turkey will suffer.
This is not the same situation, let's not pretend that it is. Otherwise where do we stop? If every non-favourable political situation is approached with such a what-if attitude the West will be at war for decades. Foreign intervention in the region has clearly done great harm both militarily and politically. One can argue it may have been justified in certain cases and I don't really seek to dispute it, but gunboat diplomacy should be the exception, not the rule.
Why? Because he's not doing things that pleases the West? I can't think of several other countries that need to be ''brought in line''.
Actually you'd be surprised at how little support the Nazis had in certain parts of Germany. Take Berlin for example, the city was famous for it's lack of support for the Nazis, when compared to other large urban areas. The West was willing to go to great lengths to appease Hitler with Britain even offering some colonies in return for Hitler backing down over the Sudetenland. But Erdogan is not Hitler and the circumstances are very different.
He is a danger to the interests of USA and NATO in general. And a danger to worldwide stability. I didn't say anything about a war, just diplomatic or economic pressure to force him to stop creating problems for the western powers. Since when does "bring in line" mean regime change or war?
For example, he intervened in the italian investigation of his son, threatening that this may worsen the two countries' relations and saying that italian justice should worry about the Mafia and not his son.
Italy, Turkey trade barbs over money-laundering probe into Erdogan's son | Reuters
Threatening to flood Europe with migrants
Turkey gives October ultimatum for visa-free travel to be granted, threatens to scrap deal
And there are of course the many accusations towards the USA and the CIA about orchestrating the failed coup... I don't understand why someone would defend Erdogan (unless he is a turk of course)
For example, he intervened in the italian investigation of his son, threatening that this may worsen the two countries' relations and saying that italian justice should worry about the Mafia and not his son.
Italy, Turkey trade barbs over money-laundering probe into Erdogan's son | Reuters
Threatening to flood Europe with migrants
Turkey gives October ultimatum for visa-free travel to be granted, threatens to scrap deal
And there are of course the many accusations towards the USA and the CIA about orchestrating the failed coup... I don't understand why someone would defend Erdogan (unless he is a turk of course)
Also international law is far fuzzier and far less clear then you seem to imply ngati. Countries interfere in each others affairs all the time. Turkey is only safe from interference up to a point. And the fewer friends they have, the lower the threshold becomes. Nobody is pressuring Erdogan on human rights abuses vis-a-vis the Kurds, but that could change in a heartbeat if aggressive Turkish behavior forces the withdrawal of US nukes.
also the nature of state on state clashes has now changed markedly
Also international law is far fuzzier and far less clear then you seem to imply ngati. Countries interfere in each others affairs all the time. Turkey is only safe from interference up to a point. And the fewer friends they have, the lower the threshold becomes. Nobody is pressuring Erdogan on human rights abuses vis-a-vis the Kurds, but that could change in a heartbeat if aggressive Turkish behavior forces the withdrawal of US nukes.
witness the rise of hybrid warfare and non state and militarised IMV groups
you can sympathise with the philosophy of isolationalism in its puresr intent when you see how a few things have turned to custard in the last 30 years
I don't believe that isolationism is the answer either, but its not hard to see why the Arnaud Amalric school of thought has some substance
- especially when everyone has their own God standing on the "right side" of justice and political/military natural selection
also the nature of state on state clashes has now changed markedly
witness the rise of hybrid warfare and non state and militarised IMV groups
you can sympathise with the philosophy of isolationalism in its puresr intent when you see how a few things have turned to custard in the last 30 years
I don't believe that isolationism is the answer either, but its not hard to see why the Arnaud Amalric school of thought has some substance
I had to look up that reference. Though I'd heard the phrase before, I was not familiar with the distinguished abbot. Personally I prefer Duma's paraphrasing of Diderot: "strangle the last Catholic with the entrails of the last Huguenot". It applies so well to the sectarian violence in the ME.
Homini homo lupus est.
Joe Black
Active Member
I generally subscribe to the beliefs that one should not interfere with other countries affair, but only to a point whereby if the country is actively involved in promoting chaos in their neighbouring countries or acting as a bully against other friendly countries, then some actions might be warranted.
If you look at how Turkey's Erodogan role in "supporting" ISIS and actively interfere with Syria, Iraq and Iran, and collude with Pakistan in supporting some elements of radical Islam, you do have to wonder how much longer would the world stay by and watch things happen?
I don't agree with coup in general but Erodogan do spell trouble.
If you look at how Turkey's Erodogan role in "supporting" ISIS and actively interfere with Syria, Iraq and Iran, and collude with Pakistan in supporting some elements of radical Islam, you do have to wonder how much longer would the world stay by and watch things happen?
I don't agree with coup in general but Erodogan do spell trouble.
You don't think economic and political pressure will be perceived as being backed by the threat of military action, given the West's batting average with Islamic countries? I agree that it's very unlikely given Turkey's NATO status but if the country were to politically shift along more extreme lines then I wouldn't be surprised by anything in the post-9/11 world.
And for the record, not everyone who disagrees with your opinion is a Turk...
Hitler got the support of 31% of registered voters, & 37% of those who voted, in the first 1932 election. That was his high point. After seeing what he did with that support, his vote fell in the next election to 26% of the electorate & 33% of those who voted. There were no more free elections.
In the last contested election, with massive intimidation, huge amounts of violence up to & including murder of opponents, banning of newspapers which opposed the Nazis, the arrest of the leader of the third largest party (later killed) & thousands of its members, & 'monitoring' of the vote by armed Nazi party members (enlisted as 'auxiliary police'), he got 39% of the electorate to vote for him, 44% of those who voted.
Yep, Germans all supported him.
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A much more bigger danger to ''worldwide stability'' would be Saudi Arabia; great friend and ally of the West. It is Saudi's Wahabbism ideology that has been adopted by the Talibs and IS and Saudi which even after 11 September still had links to the Taliban; yet Turkey is a threat? It wasn't Turk citizens who carried out the 11 September attacks. And let's not forget Qatar which openly supported ''extremist'' elements in Libya and whose funding has benefited those who violently oppose the West.
Amidst all this talk about the rise of Islamists in Turkey; does it automatically mean that this is a threat to the West? If segments of the Turk population decide they want to get closer to god; that's up to them. If Islamic radicalism is of such a concern; why not start with Saudi? Last I checked, women are not allowed to work, not allowed to drive and can't go out unless accompanied by a male minder or relative.
Israel which benefits greatly from the policy of conditional U.S. support has been trying to get Pollard free, yet Pollard was tried and convicted of spying on the U.S. for Israel. Talk about gratitude and being a friend.
Saudi, another great friend of the West threatened to severe relation with the UK and cancel contracts if authorities in the UK proceeded with investigations regarding bribes paid in connection with the Al Yamanah arms deal. The Saudis also recently made it clear that they would reduce their investments in the U.S. if a report on Saudi complicity in the 11 September attacks were released. To top this all, Saudi even wanted the U.S. to strike Iran; not because of alleged Iranian nukes but because Saudi would have benefited from this. And what about Yemen; a war launched by Saudi not because of humanitarian or human rights concerns for the Yemenis [many of whom have been killed as part of ''collateral damage''] but because it was in line with the Cold War being fought between Saudi and it's allies against Iran. Has this benefited the West and has it contributed to long term regional stability?
I've got as much Turk blood in me as I do Icelandic or Uzbek.
It's not about defending Erdogan but judging everyone on the same standards of behaviour; not just the ones you happen to like or support. If we're going to continue demonising Erdogen just because he's done something that displeased the West; we should first start with a whole list of other countries. Like all Turkish leaders Erdogan has continued to deny Turkish responsibility in the Armenian holocaust; yet many here were quiet. Now that he's put down a coup and taken certain steps to strengthen his position [which anyone in the same position would do]; he's now a threat to the West?
http://ericmargolis.com/2016/07/turkeys-generals-strike-back/
Maybe but a distinction has to be made : does Erdogan spell trouble for his country or for the West? If he only spelt trouble for his country [in terms of media crackdowns and purges] but still remained chums with the West and went out of his way to please the West; would he still be vilified?
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That's curious. When the Saudis went to that conference to discuss limiting oil production with OPEC and Russia iirc last year, the US threatened to release documents proving Saudi complicity in the 9-11 attacks. When the Saudis walked out of that conference with no agreement in place, the US withdrew their threat.
Update:
A senior USAF officer's account of being at Incirlik when the coup attempt went down.
The Turkish govt have taken over factories and shipyards that have been previously under the control of the military.
The Turkish media and apparently general population are still continuing with the narrative that the US is somehow responsible for the coup attempt.
Erdogan is still whinging about the reaction of foreign countries to the coup. It's not to his liking apparently. Also a lawyer in Turkey has filed a criminal complaint against the, Gen. Joseph Dunford, the chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff; U.S. National Intelligence Director James Clapper and Gen. Joseph Votel, the top U.S. commander for the Middle East, accusing them of backing Gulen. the complaint has yet to be accepted by prosecutors.
A senior USAF officer's account of being at Incirlik when the coup attempt went down.
The Turkish govt have taken over factories and shipyards that have been previously under the control of the military.
The Turkish media and apparently general population are still continuing with the narrative that the US is somehow responsible for the coup attempt.
Erdogan is still whinging about the reaction of foreign countries to the coup. It's not to his liking apparently. Also a lawyer in Turkey has filed a criminal complaint against the, Gen. Joseph Dunford, the chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff; U.S. National Intelligence Director James Clapper and Gen. Joseph Votel, the top U.S. commander for the Middle East, accusing them of backing Gulen. the complaint has yet to be accepted by prosecutors.
The Turkish Justice Minister has stated that the US shouldn't sacrifice its alliance with Turkey over a refusal to extradite the Muslim cleric Fethullah Gulen.
Erdogan and Putin appear to have kissed and made up again.
Apparently the post coup arrests have reached 16,000 and climbing.
Erdogan and Putin appear to have kissed and made up again.
Apparently the post coup arrests have reached 16,000 and climbing.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
How effective will the alliance be after Erdogan purges his military? Perhaps Putin can provide a history lesson on how well Stalin's military purges worked out in the late 1930s. Regardless, the bigger issue is what path is he taking his country down?
That's a good question and remains to be seen but the fact remains that the bulk of the population was against the coup and it's to be expected that many will understand the need for Erdogan to clamp down on the military and the media; even though they might not be too happy with it. I don't really see how things in the long run might effect Turkey's position in NATO or its relationship with the U.S : realpolitik will ensure the relationship doesn't suffer irreparable damage.
PetranPireotis
Member
President elected Trump what kind of opinion has about sending Gullen or not to Turkey? :hippie