Royal New Zealand Air Force

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
To be fair the 757, the runway length at Suva was a bit on the short side for the 757 to be able to take off again at least with a fuel load to get to NZ - hence the C-130 was taken much to the disappointment of the media contingent

Prime Minister John Key, his toilet and the Air Force Hercules | Stuff.co.nz
Yeah we keep on thinking about Fiji flights and Nadi. Nausori near Suva is a bit on the truncated side and I believe can only take 737-800's / A320 sized aircraft at the moment. Fiji Air's A330's can only operate out of Nadi which is a 2 miler, but is on the other side of the island and a 3 hour road trip or local commercial hop, which would be a bit of a logistical nightmare for DPMC/MFAT/NZDF + Press Gallery.
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
To be fair the 757, the runway length at Suva was a bit on the short side for the 757 to be able to take off again at least with a fuel load to get to NZ - hence the C-130 was taken much to the disappointment of the media contingent

Prime Minister John Key, his toilet and the Air Force Hercules | Stuff.co.nz
Wouldn't the logical solution have been:
1) Load up PM and delegation with light fuel load at Suva
2) Make short hop to Nadi and top up fuel
3) Next stop Auckland

I wonder if there was an availability problem with the 757s?

In other air force news, a C-130 is now operating in the Middle East.

NZDF - NZDF Air Transport Team Gets Down to Work in the Middle East
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
The VIP aspect was seen as an area within the VfM context which could have aspects of it chartered out. It is about 10% of its traditional annual allocation. However the other 90% is very much a keystone role within the NZDF.

Note the PM went to Fiji in a C-130H last week. The B757's are not always available for employment in the VIP role.
I've commented before that MFAT and the PM's office have grown to very much appreciate the service provided by the 757s. It has proven very helpful in regional meetings around the Pacific, where RNZAF can easily collect government leaders from a few different states and transport them to something like a regional forum.

It not only makes NZ look like a helpful friend, but means our politicians and diplomats get a few hours of direct contact time to debate issues and come up with NZ-friendly tactics.

I can't see the 757s going unless/until they can be replaced with an equivalent or better capability at lower cost. I suspect a charter arrangement with AirNZ that covered guaranteed availability would be closely considered by gov't if the price was right.
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
Chis73 has highlighted a release of new DWP-related material on the NZ DEfence Ministry website.

About the Defence White Paper 2015 [Ministry of Defence NZ]

The Cab Paper with this title:
Cabinet minute Defence White Paper 2016: Capability [CAB-16-MIN-0219] in pdf format (216KB)

is at the 7th bullet point on the page.

If I read paras 6, 7 and 8 correctly, the current plan is a like-for-like replacement of NZ's air transport fleet, to keep NZDF within available budget. This call to be re-examined in future in relationship to Antarctica. However, we will be getting
'an improved air surveillance capability'.

I'm interpreting this as meaning we will get P-8s and C-130Js.

Now what will we have to argue about on the internet!
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
I've commented before that MFAT and the PM's office have grown to very much appreciate the service provided by the 757s. It has proven very helpful in regional meetings around the Pacific, where RNZAF can easily collect government leaders from a few different states and transport them to something like a regional forum.

It not only makes NZ look like a helpful friend, but means our politicians and diplomats get a few hours of direct contact time to debate issues and come up with NZ-friendly tactics.

I can't see the 757s going unless/until they can be replaced with an equivalent or better capability at lower cost. I suspect a charter arrangement with AirNZ that covered guaranteed availability would be closely considered by gov't if the price was right.
I actually think that if the revised assumptions that they have been working on with respect to strategic lift (though heavily redacted in released DWP documents but noting a revision due to the weight of the Antarctic dimension in this role and that according to the documents the C-17 is the preferred in this capability subset) do not play out then a more capable troop transport COTS platform also in service with our close partners may / may have to prevail.

The 'tactical' side of the equation is heading towards the C-130J in my view as the released DWP docs are noting the phrase like for like. (Yeap that is what I thought too 40 South) The final Cabinet decision of the Air Mobility package is not scheduled until 2019, which does leave some wriggle room for the A400M to get its act together.

The whole FAMC zone is a stuff up after 4 years of investigation and scoping. Because they are none the wiser. In a few years we will look back at the prevarication over the not moving fast enough over the last whitetail C-17's as one of the great stuff up's on NZ procurement or in this case non procurement history. The short term focus on the political target of achieving a small surplus has gravely affected a core capability that will have repercussions for the NZDF for the next 40 years.

Limitations of Defence White Paper noted in the documents (I do note they are dated circa June 2015):

"Lack of heavy strategic airlift capability affects ability to deploy heavy vehicles and helicopters at short notice, including Humanitarian Aid and Disaster Relief response."

The released DWP documents also note:

It affects the NZDF / NZ Government's full ability to:

a) contribute to international efforts to resolve or manage conflicts, including undertaking combat roles, peacekeeping, HADR, and exercises.

b) lead (or operate with the support of others) an operation in the South Pacific.

c) support NZ civilian presence at Scott Base and contribute towards Joint Lift requirements between NZ-US.

The lack of the above capability would make a total mockery of all the flowery good intentioned language elsewhere. This is basic stuff to get a full and solid capability for the long term that actually makes the policy work. It is like building a new metropolitan hospital without an A&E department and having a day clinic instead.

No wonder there was a rethink being demanded from Cabinet.
 
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40 deg south

Well-Known Member
The 'tactical' side of the equation is heading towards the C-130J in my view as the released DWP docs are noting the phrase like for like. (Yeap that is what I thought too 40 South) The final Cabinet decision of the Air Mobility package is not scheduled until 2019, which does leave some wriggle room for the A400M to get its act together.
Mr C
Is it your understanding that no aircraft will be ordered until 2019, or is that merely the point at which Antarctic capability will be reconsidered? I need to look at the whole suite of documents again to better get my head around the various options and recommendations.

I can't help wondering if 2019 is a convenient point at which the A400m will be confirmed as a lemon, or a successful airlifter that had a rough beginning?

Also, clearly there are planned but blanked-out improvements to surveillance capability. I'm assuming P-8s, but can you detect any hint of a second-tier EEZ patrol aircraft or an unmanned capability? I have been expecting one of the other, but probably not both.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Mr C
Is it your understanding that no aircraft will be ordered until 2019, or is that merely the point at which Antarctic capability will be reconsidered? I need to look at the whole suite of documents again to better get my head around the various options and recommendations.

I can't help wondering if 2019 is a convenient point at which the A400m will be confirmed as a lemon, or a successful airlifter that had a rough beginning?

Also, clearly there are planned but blanked-out improvements to surveillance capability. I'm assuming P-8s, but can you detect any hint of a second-tier EEZ patrol aircraft or an unmanned capability? I have been expecting one of the other, but probably not both.
The 2019 Cabinet decision date was something that stood out. The Antarctic considerations I think will have to be addressed sooner than later.

A quick once through reading so far portends to the P-8 but the redacted text does not give any help if that will extend to a complementary UAS mix. My view is that there will eventually be a supplementary capability for coastal surveillance via the MEPT replacement.

I sense a lose of confidence in the A400M, but I hope it can be rectified quickly.
 

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
Thanks for that! had to laugh picturing the Pm using a toliet on C130, with turbulance! roughing it indeed! Should help him appreciate the working conditions a bit better.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
And this is exactly why I don't read too deep into tea leaf papers with all their fancy throw away lines, nifty wording and perceived claims of vastness and equipping as until the fat man sings (pun intended) it's all just options and theories up until the hard tangible decisions are made.

Luckily we still have alittle time but for some projects the window is slowly closing, some have closed and others are hard to see through at the moment. Still too up in the air and out to sea just yet for any certainties and I think even the decision makers are still tapping their feet and scratching their.....heads.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I actually think that if the revised assumptions that they have been working on with respect to strategic lift (though heavily redacted in released DWP documents but noting a revision due to the weight of the Antarctic dimension in this role and that according to the documents the C-17 is the preferred in this capability subset) do not play out then a more capable troop transport COTS platform also in service with our close partners may / may have to prevail.
So do think that if any form of C17 acquisition is off the table then, they may look at the KC30 MRTT as operated by RAAF or Voyager as operated by the RAF or KC46 (USAF) although that is somewhat risky at the moment? However it won't solve the issue of moving gear that is larger than the cargo hold dimensions of the C130. Could that mean a combination of a A330 MRTT / KC46 and A400Ms?
The 'tactical' side of the equation is heading towards the C-130J in my view as the released DWP docs are noting the phrase like for like. (Yeap that is what I thought too 40 South) The final Cabinet decision of the Air Mobility package is not scheduled until 2019, which does leave some wriggle room for the A400M to get its act together.
I would agree also that the C130J is looking like the tactical choice.
The whole FAMC zone is a stuff up after 4 years of investigation and scoping. Because they are none the wiser. In a few years we will look back at the prevarication over the not moving fast enough over the last white-tail C-17's as one of the great stuff up's on NZ procurement or in this case non procurement history. The short term focus on the political target of achieving a small surplus has gravely affected a core capability that will have repercussions for the NZDF for the next 40 years.

Limitations of Defence White Paper noted in the documents (I do note they are dated circa June 2015):

"Lack of heavy strategic airlift capability affects ability to deploy heavy vehicles and helicopters at short notice, including Humanitarian Aid and Disaster Relief response."

The released DWP documents also note:

It affects the NZDF / NZ Government's full ability to:

a) contribute to international efforts to resolve or manage conflicts, including undertaking combat roles, peacekeeping, HADR, and exercises.

b) lead (or operate with the support of others) an operation in the South Pacific.

c) support NZ civilian presence at Scott Base and contribute towards Joint Lift requirements between NZ-US.

The lack of the above capability would make a total mockery of all the flowery good intentioned language elsewhere. This is basic stuff to get a full and solid capability for the long term that actually makes the policy work. It is like building a new metropolitan hospital without an A&E department and having a day clinic instead.

No wonder there was a rethink being demanded from Cabinet.
Problem as I see it, is that the pollies want the capabilities but are not willing to provide the money for viable capability sets. They want the champagne life style but are only willing to pay the lemonade cost. They dithered far to much when the C17 white tails were available and by the time they thought about it, the aircraft were sold. There is too much hand wringing by them and they'll stuff any P8 acquisition the same way because at present the P8 production line has only enough orders, including the USN orders, to keep it running until 2021. They do need to do something in order to take the strain off the C130H(NZ) before 2020 or they will have aircraft availability problems, because the first SLEP aircraft is due for retirement around 2020 and it would be foolhardy and improbable to try and do a Lazarus on it. It takes time to introduce a new capability.
Still too up in the air and out to sea just yet for any certainties and I think even the decision makers are still tapping their feet and scratching their.....heads.
Not the only thing that they have been scratching either Reg.

Overall I am very disappointed with the three year delay of the FAMC. If it needed reworking then maybe one year before taking it back to Cabinet. They have all the information on what is available and it wouldn't take three years to re examine that information in light of what the limitations current air mobility has on govt policy are. To me it's a political sideways shuffle. They are cutting off their noses to spite their faces.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
Not the only thing that they have been scratching either Reg.

Overall I am very disappointed with the three year delay of the FAMC. If it needed reworking then maybe one year before taking it back to Cabinet. They have all the information on what is available and it wouldn't take three years to re examine that information in light of what the limitations current air mobility has on govt policy are. To me it's a political sideways shuffle. They are cutting off their noses to spite their faces.
Agreed Ngati does seem to be just dragging now. They know all the options now (or at least have a fair idea) for this particular project, good and bad so you would think they would at least have a clearer picture now (with pathway options at least) as unfourtunately time is now against them and counting, but for some reason they seem as lost as when the notion was first passed way back when. I believe they have had the info for years and are waiting for some kind of miracle to happen meanwhile come 2020 the ships going to start hitting the fan like clockwork (if not sooner).

For some reason either way I feel we are definately going to get our moneys worth out of the C130H (and some, classic NZDF never learns) so would have at least thought a medium relief lifter would have already been in the pipeline by now as even if we stay with the C130 family the issue has been raised with our current fleet regardless so why re-live the past, the larger options would merely compound this. This would seem like a no brainer to not avoid, but at least mitigate imminent failure as 4 years is not actually long to aqquire, introduce and sign off any in-direct support nevermind direct replacement.

We can only beat the horse for so long before we are left standing and this capabilties to important and wide reaching throughout NZDF to be caught out without at least a back up.
 
The A400 as the sole tactical transport would be great for some of the longer flights and can carry a decent load but lacks some of the abilites of the C130 hence the UK keeping some C130s in service until 2030 alongside the A400
Ideally a mix of C17 or A400 and C130 would be ideal but unlikely but don't be surprised if ex RAF C130 (C130J-30s to be phased out as the A400 enters service)are on the agenda - they have been worked hard but are a lot younger than the current NZ C130s, relatively cheap and offer some compatiablity with the RAAF.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Agreed Ngati does seem to be just dragging now. They know all the options now (or at least have a fair idea) for this particular project, good and bad so you would think they would at least have a clearer picture now (with pathway options at least) as unfourtunately time is now against them and counting, but for some reason they seem as lost as when the notion was first passed way back when. I believe they have had the info for years and are waiting for some kind of miracle to happen meanwhile come 2020 the ships going to start hitting the fan like clockwork (if not sooner).

For some reason either way I feel we are definately going to get our moneys worth out of the C130H (and some, classic NZDF never learns) so would have at least thought a medium relief lifter would have already been in the pipeline by now as even if we stay with the C130 family the issue has been raised with our current fleet regardless so why re-live the past, the larger options would merely compound this. This would seem like a no brainer to not avoid, but at least mitigate imminent failure as 4 years is not actually long to aqquire, introduce and sign off any in-direct support nevermind direct replacement.

We can only beat the horse for so long before we are left standing and this capabilties to important and wide reaching throughout NZDF to be caught out without at least a back up.
I don't believe its actually a NZDF problem or a Ministry problem because they will be well very aware of the issues. It is my firm belief is that the problem is at the non defence and political level who seem to think that acquiring new kit is like buying a new car and who's view is in electoral cycles.
The A400 as the sole tactical transport would be great for some of the longer flights and can carry a decent load but lacks some of the abilites of the C130 hence the UK keeping some C130s in service until 2030 alongside the A400

Ideally a mix of C17 or A400 and C130 would be ideal but unlikely but don't be surprised if ex RAF C130 (C130J-30s to be phased out as the A400 enters service)are on the agenda - they have been worked hard but are a lot younger than the current NZ C130s, relatively cheap and offer some compatiablity with the RAAF.
Second hand cheap C130J-30s are not on the NZG shopping list because the govt realise the false economy of acquiring such aircraft for such an important policy capability. They have seen this with previous acquisitions.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Ideally a mix of C17 or A400 and C130 would be ideal but unlikely but don't be surprised if ex RAF C130 (C130J-30s to be phased out as the A400 enters service)are on the agenda - they have been worked hard but are a lot younger than the current NZ C130s, relatively cheap and offer some compatiablity with the RAAF.

Gee I hope not in, from my pov and the release of the cabinet papers They are setting up as the paper say "like for like" but think they are waiting for the last possible moment for Airbus to get their act together.

If it was me I'd go to Airbus and lease 3x C295 right now with option to buy at a later date and have options for 3 more to relive some of the pressure of C130H. It gives Airbus a sniff of what could happen. If it doesn't pan out buy a certain date then it's either C130J or perhaps Kawaski C2 who may also have their kinks ironed out buy then.
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
Mr C
Is it your understanding that no aircraft will be ordered until 2019, or is that merely the point at which Antarctic capability will be reconsidered? I need to look at the whole suite of documents again to better get my head around the various options and recommendations.
Embarrassed to answer my own question, but have found a clear statement in para 44 of the main funding paper.

It states that a mid-point refresh of the DWP (i.e. another midpoint re-balancing review) will provide greater cost certainty to Ministers prior to making capability decisions, including future air surveillance capability, future air transport capability and future frigate replacement. There are a couple of redacted bits as well.

So we can continue arguing the toss on these issues for another two years uninterrupted! More significantly, it means these decisions won't be made by the current government, with the next election due by Nov 2017. That could be, errr, interesting....
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
Gee I hope not in, from my pov and the release of the cabinet papers They are setting up as the paper say "like for like" but think they are waiting for the last possible moment for Airbus to get their act together.

If it was me I'd go to Airbus and lease 3x C295 right now with option to buy at a later date and have options for 3 more to relive some of the pressure of C130H. It gives Airbus a sniff of what could happen. If it doesn't pan out buy a certain date then it's either C130J or perhaps Kawaski C2 who may also have their kinks ironed out buy then.
I think they are trying to wait out the A400 gremlin as well but I can't help but think even if we jump in line will the slots work out for us timewise anyway as either way I can see a gap between aqquisition and introduction and definately to FOC and with such a small envisaged fleet without an alternate this is nothing but trouble. No doubt airbus will be keen to see us in A400 but unfourtunately they have more important issues to contend with and longstanding customers to keep satisfied at this stage in it's history. Perhaps a deal on C295s in the interim could be worked as a stop gap to take pressure off the Hs and buy some time (as much as I hate the thought).

Could we possibly do a similar deal to the seasprites if the price was right with the brit Js to cover the nesscessary timeframe required to aqquire and introduce A400 if this was indeed the route govt was heading? Seems abit mish mosh and regardless chewing through funds but a seemingly better prospect than flying our current fleet into the ground so to speak. Not ideal (unless we end up just going with Js anyway) but an option.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Could be a be a worry what a Labour/Greens coalition might do with the DWP too if elected...
Yeah but they would need NZ First to get them anywhere close enough, which will be an issue for them and make it very difficult to greenwash the NZDF.

NZ First are writing their own alternative DWP for 2017 and it will be considerably more hawkish than anything Labour and the Greens would envisage.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
The ability to support the Antarctic/Ross Sea and play a credible role in the NZ-US Joint Logistics Pool is in my view underpinning this.

There is a very real risk that Operation Deep Freeze based in Christchurch and the considerable advantages it brings to NZ may be downgraded.

United States Antarctic Program trials Hobart-McMurdo flight — Australian Antarctic Division

The Antarctic Sun: News about Antarctica - Successful Flights Means More Access to McMurdo in Winter

Since the DWP is going full court press on the importance of the Antarctic and it must not miscalculate or underestimate the required level of credible support to the JLP.

Though it is not explicitly stated the lack of reliability concerning the RNZAF JLP contribution impacts US operations in the Antarctic.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Could we possibly do a similar deal to the seasprites if the price was right with the brit Js to cover the nesscessary timeframe required to aqquire and introduce A400 if this was indeed the route govt was heading?
I cant see you getting them as an interim measure

The Sprite's were bought as zero hour airframes, the ex RAF C130J wont be big fundamental difference for that reason I don't think they will be very good vfm and quite possibly will find yourselves in the very same situation further down the track with having to replace those ex RAF & RAN airframes at the same time
 
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