NZDF General discussion thread

[MrConservative]

The NZG is extending the NZDF Iraq army training deployment by 18 months. It will also commit a small number of trainers to the Besmeya military base where the Iraqi troops are trained in heavy weapons. This is to ensure a smooth handover to other coalition trainers. Cabinet has also agreed to provide training to 'stabilisation forces" including Iraqi federal police. This takes the deployment out to November 2018 and the NZG has not ruled out further extensions of the deployment. However the NZG will not authorise NZDF being involved "outside the wire".

Andrew Little would withdraw troops from Iraq | Politics | Newshub

Like a mad dog barking at a passing Bus - Andrew Little said he would pull troops out of Taji if Labour are elected at the next election in Sept-Nov 2017.

All that will would do is destroy all the hard work and trust-building within Defence and Security that has happened over many decades and in the particular the last few years between NZ and other western liberal democratic countries, in particular defence partners Australia, UK and the US.

For what? Just so he can grandstand to his dwindling electoral base. Typical instant 'virtue signalling' behaviour for social media / MSM muppets - that does not have any intellectual or operational nous.

And how? I cannot ever see the ADF laying on the leaving party nor the necessary C-17's air mobility in a big hurry to shift them home. The irony is that the reality is only a further 12 month period.

But the real stupidity is that he would not mind sending NZ troops back under a UN 'Peacekeeping' mandate.

Lets get this straight. So he is anti the NZDF building capacity alongside Australia via training of Iraqi forces to improve and stabilise the security situation against ISIS - but all for returning later on a UNSC mandated mission to stabilise the country. Which I would say is of far greater risk to NZ troops.

If you ever want to see the absolute immorality, irrationalism, irresponsibility and intellectual immaturity of Andrew Little and his ilk - it is all laid out in the muddled press release above.

 

[40 deg south]

Andrew Little would withdraw troops from Iraq | Politics | Newshub

Like a mad dog barking at a passing Bus - Andrew Little said he would pull troops out of Taji if Labour are elected at the next election in Sept-Nov 2017.

All that will would do is destroy all the hard work and trust-building within Defence and Security that has happened over many decades and in the particular the last few years between NZ and other western liberal democratic countries, in particular defence partners Australia, UK and the US.

For what? Just so he can grandstand to his dwindling electoral base. Typical instant 'virtue signalling' behaviour for social media / MSM muppets - that does not have any intellectual or operational nous.

And how? I cannot not ever see the ADF laying on the leaving party nor the necessary C-17's air mobility in a big hurry to shift them home. The irony is that the reality is only a further 12 month period.

But the real stupidity is that he would not mind sending NZ troops back under a UN 'Peacekeeping' mandate.

Lets get this straight. So he is anti the NZDF building capacity alongside Australia via training of Iraqi forces to improve and stabilise the security situation against ISIS - but all for returning later on a UNSC mandated mission to stabilise the country. Which I would say is of far greater risk to NZ troops.

If you ever want to see the absolute immorality, irrationalism, irresponsibility and intellectual immaturity of Andrew Little and his ilk - it is all laid out in the muddled press release above.

Time for a quiet cuppa, Mr C. If you get that upset over ignorant posturing from a politician, you will never know a moment's peace!

Another politics blog points out that MR Little is hedging his bets on withdrawal.

https://yournz.org/2016/06/21/little-on-extended-deployment/

The key phrase being

But if the conflict remained unchanged in Iraq and Syria, he confirmed he would withdraw New Zealand’s deployment of 143 trainers from Taji Military Base near Baghdad.

“If it’s the same as it is now I cannot see a case for continuing,” he told the Herald.

Given that nothing in the Middle East is likely to remain the same in 18 months apart from general dysfunction, he can virtue-signal to his left-wing base now and plausibly retreat from actually withdrawing when it comes to the crunch if there will be international consequences. Or not, depending on naked political calculation.

Just another day in the Beehive!

 

[40 deg south]

Some more follow-up on the DWP, including a nice riposte from Ayson to Jennings' criticisms. The others I've selected mainly because they contain multiple links to other opinions.

A New Zealand wolf in sheep’s clothing | The Strategist
...

P.S. Note the upcoming DWP aftermatch conference on 4th July in Wellington. Hopefully someone uploads it to Youtube this time

Chis73
Thanks for the links.

I think Prof Ayson makes a good response to the ASPI criticism of DWP16, notwithstanding the cringe-inducing title. The more I re-read the original Jennings piece at The Strategist, the worse it looks. There certainly are valid criticisms of NZ's DWP, but mostly he appears to criticises it for not being a mini-me copy of the Australian DWP.

 

[MrConservative]

Time for a quiet cuppa, Mr C. If you get that upset over ignorant posturing from a politician, you will never know a moment's peace!

Another politics blog points out that MR Little is hedging his bets on withdrawal.

https://yournz.org/2016/06/21/little-on-extended-deployment/

Just another day in the Beehive!

I was actually having a quiet cuppa and nearly spat it out on the screen. There is stupidity and shallowness too right and it seems par for the course and does not wind me up too much - but when it descends into recklessness .....

Just another day in Parliament House to be specific. God help us all if that level of vacuousness ever emerges from the Beehive.

 

[kiwipatriot69]

While an expansion of the role of present numbers of trainers there, not an increase in numbers, can we supply more if required with current available personell? Now funding shouldnt be an issue.

 

[RegR]

While an expansion of the role of present numbers of trainers there, not an increase in numbers, can we supply more if required with current available personell? Now funding shouldnt be an issue.

Just to give you perspective there are only 16 official trainers in the contingent (143 total), the rest are support staff. In saying that there would still be "experience" within the rest of the deployment and would be used for other soldiering skills to help with the general upskilling and cohesion while assisting the trainers. Remember they are all soldiers from various trades and backrounds with at least some level of expertise hence why they are there so IMO they, shared with Aus, have the numbers.

 

[kiwi in exile]

Andrew Little would withdraw troops from Iraq | Politics | Newshub

Like a mad dog barking at a passing Bus - Andrew Little said he would pull troops out of Taji if Labour are elected at the next election in Sept-Nov 2017.

All that will would do is destroy all the hard work and trust-building within Defence and Security that has happened over many decades and in the particular the last few years between NZ and other western liberal democratic countries, in particular defence partners Australia, UK and the US.

For what? Just so he can grandstand to his dwindling electoral base. Typical instant 'virtue signalling' behaviour for social media / MSM muppets - that does not have any intellectual or operational nous.

And how? I cannot ever see the ADF laying on the leaving party nor the necessary C-17's air mobility in a big hurry to shift them home. The irony is that the reality is only a further 12 month period.

But the real stupidity is that he would not mind sending NZ troops back under a UN 'Peacekeeping' mandate.

Lets get this straight. So he is anti the NZDF building capacity alongside Australia via training of Iraqi forces to improve and stabilise the security situation against ISIS - but all for returning later on a UNSC mandated mission to stabilise the country. Which I would say is of far greater risk to NZ troops.

If you ever want to see the absolute immorality, irrationalism, irresponsibility and intellectual immaturity of Andrew Little and his ilk - it is all laid out in the muddled press release above.

Watch this for a little more on Littles views:
Video: Andrew Little on Morning Report | Radio New Zealand News
Theres a little more than simplistic headlines that "Little would pull troops out." Its easy to criticise based on MSM headlines but look a bit deeper into what he's saying.
He seems to be saying that the Iraqi Army is a little lacking in drive, professionalism etc and training them is a waste of time. He is not against involvement per se, just against us wasting time, sweat, money and potentially life and limb. Talks about hearing from NZ soldiers there mentioning only 200/1000 turned up to training. Remember these are the guys that the US spent years and billions training only to see them ditch their humvees and flee in the face of ISIS. Have NZ trained troops been tested in the field? Sure we should be playing a part, but would hate for it all to be in vain.

 

[MrConservative]

Watch this for a little more on Littles views:
Video: Andrew Little on Morning Report | Radio New Zealand News
Theres a little more than simplistic headlines that "Little would pull troops out." Its easy to criticise based on MSM headlines but look a bit deeper into what he's saying.
He seems to be saying that the Iraqi Army is a little lacking in drive, professionalism etc and training them is a waste of time. He is not against involvement per se, just against us wasting time, sweat, money and potentially life and limb. Talks about hearing from NZ soldiers there mentioning only 200/1000 turned up to training. Remember these are the guys that the US spent years and billions training only to see them ditch their humvees and flee in the face of ISIS. Have NZ trained troops been tested in the field? Sure we should be playing a part, but would hate for it all to be in vain.

The Taji trained forces that NZ has been dealing with are primarily for longer term stabilisation and the building of confidence and capacity within Iraq Army. That is not a role to be discounted in the least.

His rationale to bring the NZ training mission home is based on the fact that local non Iraq Army Special Operations units (backed by imbedded US advisors) are the ones achieving the 'beach-head' as he puts it and the NZ trained recruits are just following up. To win the war against Daesh in Iraq territorial occupation is required after the Battle to hold the line, stabilize and build confidence in what remains of civil society. Those Iraqi soldiers and NCO's we are training are the 'peace keepers' one could say. Unless what Little wants is for us to go in boots and all - tying up our whole NZDF capacity for the next 5+ years. Seriously, we are good at doing what we are doing well there right now. Leaving now would undermine that important and necessary confidence building role. The Iraq mission has roadblocks, but it is an important role within a whole schemata of required approaches to improve Iraq and sort out Daesh insitu. The DPMC has many qualified people as advisors from a number of departments and ministries. Andrew Little has Rob Salmon and Matt McCarten .....

 

[ngatimozart]

The Taji trained forces that NZ has been dealing with are primarily for longer term stabilisation and the building of confidence and capacity within Iraq Army. That is not a role to be discounted in the least.

His rationale to bring the NZ training mission home is based on the fact that local non Iraq Army Special Operations units (backed by imbedded US advisors) are the ones achieving the 'beach-head' as he puts it and the NZ trained recruits are just following up. To win the war against Daesh in Iraq territorial occupation is required after the Battle to hold the line, stabilize and build confidence in what remains of civil society. Those Iraqi soldiers and NCO's we are training are the 'peace keepers' one could say. Unless what Little wants is for us to go in boots and all - tying up our whole army capacity for the next 5 years. Seriously we are good at doing what we are doing well. It has roadblocks, but it is an important role within a whole schemata of required approaches.

That's the thing if our role was expanded beyond training, it could end up like a black hole sucking in personnel, equipment and treasure for a long long time with no end in sight at great cost. The other point is that the Iraqi Govt don't want us on the front line or on the ground doing fighting and doing internal security.

 

[RegR]

I would have thought we would have taken the best and the brightest officers and NCOs right at the start, trained them for the full 2 year period in a train the trainer capacity and then give them the school with more a smaller oversight contribution to validate, audit and fine tune.

I can only assume that a fair chunk of training time is lost in translation (figuratively and literally) and courses would then run alot more fluidly if the troops were taught by their own overseen by mentors.

Admittedly this all comes down to the base level knowledge of the select national trainers to start with and build on, but 2 years of one on one formal training could surely do wonders and up their standard (they are/were still a military force). Take in a couple identified recruits to pass on the training each 'basic' to keep the train the trainer program fresh and relevant by rotating instructors through the regular units to further embed the TTPs into the wider force and more importantly gain/re-gain experience and prove the training all while slowly upping the standards and professionalism across the general force.

I can somewhat see where little is coming from in this instance in that this could just as easily become another 12 year engagement if checks, balances and an overall long term soloution is not put into place. I have no doubt our boys and girls are doing a stand up job and our military is taking in the experience over there with a passion but we still do need an eventual out, more for the general publics sake than mine, I'd have my hand up in a heartbeat to serve again.

 

[ngatimozart]

I have no doubt our boys and girls are doing a stand up job and our military is taking in the experience over there with a passion but we still do need an eventual out, more for the general publics sake than mine, I'd have my hand up in a heartbeat to serve again.

You and me, both.

 

[chis73]

2016 Defence White Paper - public submissions & cabinet papers released

The public submissions and the cabinet minutes / papers from the DWP have been released on the MOD website (link). Note that the submissions are in one large file (17mb, nearly 900 pages). This should be very interesting reading - hopefully some of the ideas put forward will spark some debate here. At least it will contain some strong (& honest) opinions (not the filtered blandness of the official summary)!

Also, a flyer has been released on the upcoming DWP symposium in Wellington (link). A good list of speakers. ASPI's Mark Thomson is usually good value.

 

[MrConservative]

Also, a flyer has been released on the upcoming DWP symposium in Wellington (link). A good list of speakers. ASPI's Mark Thomson is usually good value.

Though it is a bit of a CCS lovefest at $85 it seems good value for money. I am surprised that Lance Beath is not on the speaking list as he is the specialist advisor to the New Zealand Parliamentary Select Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade and a CCS Senior Fellow.

 

[40 deg south]

Just another day in Parliament House to be specific. God help us all if that level of vacuousness ever emerges from the Beehive.

An excellent distinction - my apologies for the loose wording.

Explanation for non-Kiwis: The PM and (some of) Cabinet are housed in the Beehive - opposition MPs are distributed elsewhere in Parliament Buildings.

 

[40 deg south]

That's the thing if our role was expanded beyond training, it could end up like a black hole sucking in personnel, equipment and treasure for a long long time with no end in sight at great cost. The other point is that the Iraqi Govt don't want us on the front line or on the ground doing fighting and doing internal security.

I cant help but recollect that the US involvement in Vietnam was originally sold to the public as a 'training and support' mission! It didn't stay that way for long...

 

[kiwi in exile]

That's the thing if our role was expanded beyond training, it could end up like a black hole sucking in personnel, equipment and treasure for a long long time with no end in sight at great cost.

Even if we stick to training, this could still be the case given Keys decision to stay longer, despite his earlier statements. Processes that lead to these decisions should be open with clear checks and ballances, something that I don't think the current lot excell at. Im sure Andrew Little etc has access to all the relevant info. Plus he has been there, spoken to NZ troops on the ground- something Im assuming none of us have done.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be there or contributing in some way. Just want us to be contributing in the best way possible.

 

[40 deg south]

The public submissions and the cabinet minutes / papers from the DWP have been released on the MOD website (link). Note that the submissions are in one large file (17mb, nearly 900 pages). This should be very interesting reading - hopefully some of the ideas put forward will spark some debate here. At least it will contain some strong (& honest) opinions (not the filtered blandness of the official summary)!

Thanks Chis, lots of interesting stuff here. Still working through it, but this Cab Paper looks especially relevant.
Cabinet paper Defence White Paper 2016: Capability [NSC-16-SUB-0010] in pdf format (1530KB)

It isn't especially well written or structured, but gives insight into some of the tradeoffs gov't is considering.

A key one is in paras 45/46, which states that the DWP16 force doesn't include a 'heavy lift' element like C-17, but this will be re-examined at some (blanked out) point.

Lots of redacted material in the section on maritime surveillance as well.

Must keep reading!

 

[ngatimozart]

NZDF will have an 86 strong contingent marching in this years Bastille Day (14 July) Parade in Paris. Regimental colours from WW1 and current colours will be paraded.

 

[ngatimozart]

The Ministry of Defence has released its Statement Of Intent for the period 1 July2016 - 30 June 2020. This is along with the release of the proposed C17 acquisition papers which were released today, details of which I posted in the RNZAF thread.

 

[40 deg south]

The Ministry of Defence has released its Statement Of Intent for the period 1 July2016 - 30 June 2020. This is along with the release of the proposed C17 acquisition papers which were released today, details of which I posted in the RNZAF thread.

Thanks for the head-up, Ngati.

On a quick flickthrough it is mainly the usual corporate PR waffle, although good to see they are boosting staff numbers significantly to manage the procurement projects flagged in the White Paper.