Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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SpazSinbad

Active Member
I'm not sure why I feel the need to do the leg work for you but if you spend a bit of your time searching in the right places it isn't hard to find the info you desire.

ParlInfo - Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation Committee : 02/06/2014 : Estimates : DEFENCE PORTFOLIO : Department of Defence
Thanks - that old reference is in my PDFs online. I'll spell out my interest again. The former PM 'asked for a report in the White Paper'. There was no report. I'm looking for such a thing as of early 2016 - after an investigation. That is my interest. Thanks again.
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
Bugger me, the F-35B FAA conversation is becoming pretty bloody circular fellas... and I see now we have a suggestion to buy a whole new LHA? What do you think that does to the RAN's STATED REQUIREMENTS? Crewing, funding, raising a whole new capability, operating a single ship of the class and thus paying no heed to needs to maintenance cycles or training requirements?

I've had it. Either start making sense, or stop talking. If this pie in the sky nonsense keeps going around I'm going to start pruning - posts first, but members if necessary. I've had a bloody gutful and so has everyone else who wants to discuss real issues instead of fantasy wishlists. Take it to PM, find another forum to discuss it, whatever you need to do, but leave the RAN thread out of it.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Thanks - that old reference is in my PDFs online. I'll spell out my interest again. The former PM 'asked for a report in the White Paper'. There was no report. I'm looking for such a thing as of early 2016 - after an investigation. That is my interest. Thanks again.
not all reports are available in the public domain

eg the parallel investigations and reports requested by PM on

F-22
JSF jump jets
nuclear subs
LR strategic bombers

etc etc.......

and then there is the issue that there are multiple classifications/iterations of the White Paper

what the general public and the media see is the unclassified version.
 
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SpazSinbad

Active Member
Australian Navy Backs Off From F-35B Joint Strike Fighter |

good enough? if you want better Spaz, I suggest you email the ADF and ask them yourself.

Or just go back through this thread and get your answers from the 4 or 5 other times we have discussed this very same thing.

In the grand scheme of things it all boils down to how much it costs. and what you expect the navy to sacrifice in order to afford it?
Sadly or not I'm not a subscriber to the FinReview so the text cannot be seen by me. And again I'm not interested in what forum contributors think on this issue - I'm after an official ADF explanation for their lack of interest in 'Bs on LHDs' about the time of the recent delayed White Paper. And going by the opening text of the cited URL I'm not too impressed by their quotes from the FinReview:
"The Australian military has decided to cancel plans to purchase F-35B Joint Strike Fighter short-take-off-and-vertical landing aircraft and place 12 of the aircraft on two of their larger assault ships...."
However there were no plans to cancel huh. As for what it costs I see any potential F-35B purchase in the last tranche of 28 'as yet to be decided' F-35s and envisage the RAAF operating them IF there are other uses in ADF conops for them when not required on an LHD - which may be not ever except for exercise purposes. Costs thus minimised with minimal cost to the RAN perhaps.
 

SpazSinbad

Active Member
not all reports are available in the public domain

eg the parallel investigations and reports requested by PM on

F-22
JSF jump jets
nuclear subs
LR strategic bombers

etc etc.......

and then there is the issue that there are multiple classifications/iterations of the White Paper

what the general public and the media see is the unclassified version.
OH well - perhaps when the F-35 Senate Inquiry starts again we may get some idea: Joint Strike Fighter – Parliament of Australia
"At the dissolution of the Senate and the House of Representatives on 9 May 2016 for a general election on 2 July 2016, the parliamentary committees of the 44th Parliament ceased to exist. Therefore inquiries that were not completed have lapsed and submissions cannot be received. However, information about the inquiries is still available on this website.

Information on this committee in the 45th Parliament will be presented here as soon as it is available...."
 
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Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
Sadly or not I'm not a subscriber to the FinReview so the text cannot be seen by me. And again I'm not interested in what forum contributors think on this issue - I'm after an official ADF explanation for their lack of interest in 'Bs on LHDs' about the time of the recent delayed White Paper. And going by the opening text of the cited URL I'm not too impressed by their quotes from the FinReview:

However there were no plans to cancel huh. As for what it costs I see any potential F-35B purchase in the last tranche of 28 'as yet to be decided' F-35s and envisage the RAAF operating them IF there are other uses in ADF conops for them when not required on an LHD - which may be not ever except for exercise purposes. Costs thus minimised with minimal cost to the RAN perhaps.
If you don't care about what forums have to say about it, if you are interested only in an official ADF explanation, perhaps you should go looking for it.
 

SpazSinbad

Active Member
If you don't care about what forums have to say about it, if you are interested only in an official ADF explanation, perhaps you should go looking for it.
Hilarious - IF you care to download my relevant PDFs you will see some considerable time has been devoted to obtaining information about these and other old RAN FAA history issues. I understand the frustration about the past explanations here and elsewhere. I'll repeat - as you have cited - I'm looking for the recent 'official ADF explanation' which may or may not be forthcoming ,as indicated by other posts today. Responses here have been interesting though.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
It's all quiet straight forward really.

The planned amphibious force isn't large enough to require any fixed wing combat support.

The cost of converting the 2 LHD's to handle F-35B's is extremely cost prohibitive at from my recollection around the $4 billion mark and that's just for the ships, you could near enough double that or more when it's all said and done and those sort of dollar's will most definitely impact other ADF acquisitions, Acquisitions that are far more important, necessary and valuable.

There is no chance of a 3rd LHD or any other flat top type ship, I personally would love for us to acquire an Aircraft carrier and F-35B's as I have mentioned in recent day's but again it's likely cost prohibitive and a vastly different ship that what has been hinted at in the DWP.

Even if the fund's could be found for any modifications, extra LHD acquisitions and the purchase of the F-35B's without dipping into funds meant for the rest of the ADF I'd imagine we would much rather prefer using that extra $5 - $10 billion to buy a hand full of Burkes as they are needed far more then any LHD.
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
Hilarious - IF you care to download my relevant PDFs you will see some considerable time has been devoted to obtaining information about these and other old RAN FAA history issues. I understand the frustration about the past explanations here and elsewhere. I'll repeat - as you have cited - I'm looking for the recent 'official ADF explanation' which may or may not be forthcoming ,as indicated by other posts today. Responses here have been interesting though.
Hilarious, that's good. Let me be more direct - have a month of free time to go looking for that answer. Maybe you'll develop a better conversational tone. Hopefully it'll be on display when you come back, if you care to.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Referring to the majors obviously, but I haven't yet ruled out an LCH replacement albeit, it doesn't seem like a high priority...
Which is strange as they have the ability also plug the shipbuilding valley of death, maybe they will delay till after the OPV construction for anothe6-9 vessels along the Damen LST 80-120 design I hope.

Once Austral comes to grips with building in steel. Could this be a way of keeping them going in steel ship building?
 

t68

Well-Known Member
the RAAF and ADF reports rejecting the need for F-22's are not in the public domain
Interesting, thought it was just discounted because of the US ban on exports

The combat capability scenarios (I'll refer to the old name as the new name is classified) which act as the foundations for all calls to the PM at 0400 when the manure hits the mistral also aren't public domain, but refer to the prev as well
Gee I find that funny classified name change for waking up the PM, but really why do they have to change the name at all, is it just to keep someone in a job dreaming up all the name changes
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Interesting, thought it was just discounted because of the US ban on exports
nope, I was at an internal conf where SecDef said in the open that if there was a serious push to get the F-22 then he could not see Congress stopping it as Congress was historically partial to supporting Aust military requirements. I was one of over 350 people in that room, so it wasn't "just me" who heard him say it in the clear. Closed environment, not classified but only industry present (incl industry media) outside of ADO attendees.

]Gee I find that funny classified name change for waking up the PM, but really why do they have to change the name at all, is it just to keep someone in a job dreaming up all the name changes
nope, subtle change in other issues gathered up under that umbrella.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
It's all quiet straight forward really.

The planned amphibious force isn't large enough to require any fixed wing combat support.
If you look at the USMC ARG/MEU construct it just dwarfs what we are able to effectively field.

In the majority of other navies the capability (outside of UK, France, Russia) within the USMC ARG/MEU would constitute fully charged battle group
 

Bluey 006

Active Member
Which is strange as they have the ability also plug the shipbuilding valley of death, maybe they will delay till after the OPV construction for anothe6-9 vessels along the Damen LST 80-120 design I hope.

Once Austral comes to grips with building in steel. Could this be a way of keeping them going in steel ship building?
6-9 LST ? Really?

While i agree that its a bit odd that these weren't looked at in the DWP, and I can see a purpose for them in our regional activities. Personally, and this is just my view, I think 9 is a little excessive in the contemporary battle space. Perhaps 2-3 LST120s to fill the gap and redirect any left over money elsewhere to support other "harder" assets?
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The cost of converting the 2 LHD's to handle F-35B's is extremely cost prohibitive at from my recollection around the $4 billion mark and that's just for the ships.
Arrant nonsense. The two ships cost a total of $3.1 billion. Unless you mean to imply that converting them means buying two more ships.

oldsig
 

t68

Well-Known Member
6-9 LST ? Really?

While i agree that its a bit odd that these weren't looked at in the DWP, and I can see a purpose for them in our regional activities. Personally, and this is just my view, I think 9 is a little excessive in the contemporary battle space. Perhaps 2-3 LST120s to fill the gap and redirect any left over money elsewhere to support other "harder" assets?
They are ment to be a replacement for the original 8 Balikpapan class of which 2 were donated to PNG back in 75 and the replacements were stated to have a better ocean going performance than than LCH.

All 6 were operational and worked hard up till being paid of and they sit between the the capability set of LCH and LSH, only really extra I would like to see them built with is a hanger for more flexibility. If as you say we only need 2 then I'd say go with more LLC plus a more capable Bacolod city class LSV
 

Bluey 006

Active Member
They are ment to be a replacement for the original 8 Balikpapan class of which 2 were donated to PNG back in 75 and the replacements were stated to have a better ocean going performance than than LCH.

All 6 were operational and worked hard up till being paid of and they sit between the the capability set of LCH and LSH, only really extra I would like to see them built with is a hanger for more flexibility. If as you say we only need 2 then I'd say go with more LLC plus a more capable Bacolod city class LSV

On paper at least the LST120 are significantly more capable aren't they? Hence the reduced number to fill that gap. I wonder if the reason they were left out is due to the evolving nature of Amphibious operations and technology, and thus other potential delivery methods emerging.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Arrant nonsense. The two ships cost a total of $3.1 billion. Unless you mean to imply that converting them means buying two more ships.

oldsig
My sincerest apologies, that figure had been stated based on a new's article so not the smartest move. That said I did find the original publication that led to that article written by Ben Schreer on behalf of ASPI.

https://www.aspi.org.au/publications/strategic-insights-78-jump-jets-for-the-adf/SI78_jump_jets.pdf

It actually does go on to mention that other ship's would be required and estimated cost's involved, a quick break down.

$500m+ to modify each LHD
$1.5 billion to acquire an extra LHD as any useful F35 componant wuld destroy a ship's amphibious capability in that ship.
$2 billion to acquire an extra AWD to protect the third LHD
$5 billion to acquire the F-35B's
$7 billion in through life cost's for the F-35B's
Unmentioned figure to acquire AEW Helo's and extra ASW helos's to support STOVL operations.

All up it could actually be ten's of billions over the life time better spent else where.
 
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