Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

Status
Not open for further replies.

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
My prefered option would have been a stretched ANZAC, or better an evolved Type 123 Brandenburg class frigate with NTU baseline air defense systems to replace the older FFGs instead of upgrading them, following straight on from the ANZACs at Williamstown, once the OCVs had been dropped. This would have been cheaper and delivered more capability than FFGUP plus the cost overruns and blackhole related overheads on the AWD. Depending how the NTU frigate went, three Flight IIA or III Burkes could be bought from the US, built locally, or a local design could even be considered if the frigate project improved further on the success of the ANZACs.

Still would likely have gone for a steel OPV over the ACPB or at least one of the steel or composite hulled designs. in hindsight biting the bullet and going for a corvette could have been doable financially, yard capacity and manning would have been a challenge, even if achievable it would have still resulted in a black hole in the late 2010s early 2020s. The biggest issue is in the early / mid 90s manning was seen as an issue with a ramp up on training executive and engineering branch officers and technical sailors required to fill the extra specialist billets these larger more capable ships would have required, what happened instead was a gutting by successive governments. This was especially telling when older manpower intensive ships were replaced by fewer new ships with smaller crews, or not replaced at all (PERTH, HOBART, BRISBANE, ADELAIDE and CANBERRA). So during the biggest, longest boom in our history we actually reduced the size and capability of the RAN, gutting the engineering and shrinking the executive branches, as well as almost destroying our shipbuilding industry. Totally bizarre when you consider that we had both far more money than we expected to have and a more complex and challenging security situation. I don't think that any reasonable person would question, that, in hindsight, we would be much better off today if we had simply continued with the successful programs and plans we already had underway in the early to mid 90s instead of the failed restructures, politicisation and cost cutting (thatended up costing us more for less) we had instead.
 

AegisFC

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
This Weekend Oz has a Defence Special Report lift out and one column that peaked my curiosity regards the CMS upgrades for the AWDs by James Mugg.

The IIP allocates between $4bn -$5bn to upgrade the CMS between 2017 - 2028.
He list examples of costs from both the USN AB and the JMSDF Atago upgrade programmes, basically upgrading from Baseline 7.1 to 9, replacing radars (SPY 1 to SPY 6 ) and, fitting a BMD capability and compares that cost with the allocated IIP funds. His conclusion is that the programme has allocated double the funds required and is intrigued at the result.

I can't link the the column but would love to here comments from those with knowledge.
SPY-1 isn't being replaced in the AB and Agato modernization. The signal processor is being replaced and upgraded but no new designation is being placed on that radar.
 
SPY-1 isn't being replaced in the AB and Agato modernization. The signal processor is being replaced and upgraded but no new designation is being placed on that radar.
The SPY-1D(V) on both AB and Atago class' is S-Band? The AMDR utilises both X and S band sensors fit-outs, no? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

If RAN do decide to upgrade to the AMDR (SPY-6), $250-300mio USD per platform looks right IMV. Factoring x2 for LCC & potential cost improvements out past 10-12yrs and the number budgeted to support x12 surface combatants looks realistic.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The SPY-1D(V) on both AB and Atago class' is S-Band? The AMDR utilises both X and S band sensors fit-outs, no? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

If RAN do decide to upgrade to the AMDR (SPY-6), $250-300mio USD per platform looks right IMV. Factoring x2 for LCC & potential cost improvements out past 10-12yrs and the number budgeted to support x12 surface combatants looks realistic.
Reality check, SPY-1D(v) barely fit F-105 and the Hobarts, I honestly can't see how a new larger, heavier radar with greater power and cooling requirements, that barely fits on a Flight III Burke, could be shoe horned into a Hobart. I fear, hope I am wrong, but definitely fear, this proposal is in the same category as the aborted ANZAC WIP that aimed to fit AEGIS and SPY-1F to the ANZACs.

This is precisely why the RAN prefered the Gibbs and Cox design but really wanted a Flight IIA or even an enhanced version of the Burke. Cabinet goes for what seems the cheap option, then less than a decade later it is realised that something more capable is needed but its too late. This means the ADF either has to do without the capability or very serious compromise's have to be made elsewhere that costs far more than doing it right the first time would have.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The SPY-1D(V) on both AB and Atago class' is S-Band? The AMDR utilises both X and S band sensors fit-outs, no? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

If RAN do decide to upgrade to the AMDR (SPY-6), $250-300mio USD per platform looks right IMV. Factoring x2 for LCC & potential cost improvements out past 10-12yrs and the number budgeted to support x12 surface combatants looks realistic.
But the upgrades were for 3 units iaw the Integrated Investment Plan, hence the mystery.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
But the upgrades were for 3 units iaw the Integrated Investment Plan, hence the mystery.
Perhaps that's how much they expect it to cost to develop a version of a system, designed to just fit in a much larger platform, to fit in a Hobart. It is very expensive to shrink or miniaturise equipment to not just fit, but also function in a significantly smaller than intended platform.

Large as they are, the USN, with the large number of hulls required, did not actually specify a significantly larger than necessary platform when developing the Arleigh Burke, but rather one that was big enough and had some reserve for future updates. The Japanese and South Koreans with the smaller numbers of this type planned, opted for larger improved /evolved derivatives. Australia, as per usual, associated size with cost and ended up spending far more money on a smaller, more limited platform that will also be delivered much later and be very difficult and expensive to upgrade to the desired standard.
 

AegisFC

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The SPY-1D(V) on both AB and Atago class' is S-Band? The AMDR utilises both X and S band sensors fit-outs, no? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

If RAN do decide to upgrade to the AMDR (SPY-6), $250-300mio USD per platform looks right IMV. Factoring x2 for LCC & potential cost improvements out past 10-12yrs and the number budgeted to support x12 surface combatants looks realistic.
AMDR is not associated with any variant of baseline 9, nor is it anywhere close to being at sea.
Also as the others said, I doubt the AWD's will have space, weight and power for AMDR.

I also know people who have worked on the F-100's as tech reps and they all hated how cramped the radar rooms are.
 

AegisFC

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Large as they are, the USN, with the large number of hulls required, did not actually specify a significantly larger than necessary platform when developing the Arleigh Burke, but rather one that was big enough and had some reserve for future updates. The Japanese and South Koreans with the smaller numbers of this type planned, opted for larger improved /evolved derivatives. Australia, as per usual, associated size with cost and ended up spending far more money on a smaller, more limited platform that will also be delivered much later and be very difficult and expensive to upgrade to the desired standard.
People seem to forget that the Burke's were designed to be the lower end compliment to the Tico's. There is no room for embarked staff for example, it can be done but it is painful for everyone involved. Most of the Japanese and South Korean "enhancements" are adding space for an embarked staff.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
People seem to forget that the Burke's were designed to be the lower end compliment to the Tico's. There is no room for embarked staff for example, it can be done but it is painful for everyone involved. Most of the Japanese and South Korean "enhancements" are adding space for an embarked staff.
Yep, very much a destroyer and not a cruiser, a large and capable destroyer but still a destroyer. The Hobart class AWDs were very much intended to be high end capability in the RAN and as there were only three they really should have been larger, more capable and flexible, as the Japanese and Korean ships are. Now with the ANZAC replacements anticipated to be potentially larger and more capable than the Hobarts it is probably not as critical in terms of embarked staff but they will still be very tight for ABM.
 

r3mu511

New Member
... That said both SM-6 and ESSM (especially the active Block II version) are intended to be part of the USN terminal BMD solution...
The presentations from MDA on Aegis BMD don't appear to indicate ESSM as an option for terminal BMD (ie. SBT/sea based bmd terminal). What's indicated is modified sm2-blk4 as interim SBT, and sm6 as objective SBT defense.

Reality check, SPY-1D(v) barely fit F-105 and the Hobarts, I honestly can't see how a new larger, heavier radar with greater power and cooling requirements, that barely fits on a Flight III Burke, could be shoe horned into a Hobart.
As the target array for AMDR on the flight-3 burkes is a ~14 foot array w/ +15 dB sensitivity improvement over spy-1d(v), perhaps a smaller array can be utilized for applications where the larger array may not be a fit (ie. space/power/cooling-wise). Raytheon claims a ~6 foot array composed of 9 RMAs offers the same sensitivity performance as the current spy-1d(v), and as they claim the AMDR is scalable for diff applications, perhaps something can be scaled appropriately to fit on a smaller platform than what is intended w/ flight-3. This is assuming something less than the +15 dB improvement would suffice for the smaller platform (eg. the 2012 GAO report on the flight-3 stated the navy considered a 12' array w/c offered +11 dB improvement over the baseline spy1, etc.).

AMDR is not associated with any variant of baseline 9, nor is it anywhere close to being at sea.
Yup, acc. to the feb-2015 ECP report submitted by USN to congress, the AMDR integration to Aegis is planned for the future ACB 20 build.
 

rockitten

Member
Just curious, Type 26 and F100, which one has better potential for a full set AMDR? Both designs can be scaled up for issues like room for extra gen set, CG, or room for the radar etc, but which design is easier?

BTW, will the Canberra being too slow to be flag ship for the TF?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
BTW, will the Canberra being too slow to be flag ship for the TF?
why? TF does not travel at flank speed all the time - and the necessity for fast transit is driven by a host of other issues

btw the flagship is not necessarily the biggest vessel in the force - its wherever the TF Commander hangs their hat.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The presentations from MDA on Aegis BMD don't appear to indicate ESSM as an option for terminal BMD (ie. SBT/sea based bmd terminal). What's indicated is modified sm2-blk4 as interim SBT, and sm6 as objective SBT defense.



As the target array for AMDR on the flight-3 burkes is a ~14 foot array w/ +15 dB sensitivity improvement over spy-1d(v), perhaps a smaller array can be utilized for applications where the larger array may not be a fit (ie. space/power/cooling-wise). Raytheon claims a ~6 foot array composed of 9 RMAs offers the same sensitivity performance as the current spy-1d(v), and as they claim the AMDR is scalable for diff applications, perhaps something can be scaled appropriately to fit on a smaller platform than what is intended w/ flight-3. This is assuming something less than the +15 dB improvement would suffice for the smaller platform (eg. the 2012 GAO report on the flight-3 stated the navy considered a 12' array w/c offered +11 dB improvement over the baseline spy1, etc.).



Yup, acc. to the feb-2015 ECP report submitted by USN to congress, the AMDR integration to Aegis is planned for the future ACB 20 build.
The volume, power and cooling required by the back end is more of a limiting factor than the actual size and weight of the array. For example early Flight III Burke / AMDR concepts had one hanger given over to an additional generator, while the cooling (chilled water) arrangements had to be upgraded as well.

This is why the LPD-17 and DDG-1000 keep being revisited, they have more volume to work with than a Burke, volume, along with power generation and cooling is critical. You need space for generators, transformers, switchboards, cabinets, racks, filters, RO plants, distilled water plants, chillers, refrigeration, air-conditioning, ventilation. There needs to be maintenance access with permanent removal routes for LRUs, soft patches and predetermined locations for access cuts to remove and replace larger items. All of this while maintaining structural integrity, weight / stability, and working around the armoured sections of the citadel.

In addition there is the heat budget to worry about, access for firefighting, effectiveness of automated fire fighting systems (water mist, seawater, AFFF, Halon). Reliability, durability, survivability, fightability (can the ship still fight after a hit, will systems degrade in a predictable, manageable manner), redundancy. There's also EMI, EO,, Tempest, system safety, ITAR, Technology Control, firewalls and other integration issues.

There is much more involved in upgrading a non US design with AMDR than whether or not the arrays can be scaled to keep their wright similar to those of SPY-1 D(v). I'm a platform guy, not combat or systems engineering, there are certain to be other factors I haven't mentioned / thought of, that will make it even more challenging / expensive. Fitting an ABM capability to the Hobarts will almost certainly be more difficult than just buying a kit and bolting it on.
 

r3mu511

New Member
^Yep, if you check my post above you'll notice I specified "space/power/cooling-wise" when it comes to fitting of a given array.

In fact if you check out the feb-2015 ECP report to congress I mentioned in my post it lists the details of the SWaP-C changes required for flight-3 as driven by the 14' array chosen.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
^Yep, if you check my post above you'll notice I specified "space/power/cooling-wise" when it comes to fitting of a given array.

In fact if you check out the feb-2015 ECP report to congress I mentioned in my post it lists the details of the SWaP-C changes required for flight-3 as driven by the 14' array chosen.
I joined the AWD project in 2009 when it was just starting to be realised that it was going to be anything but a build to print of an F-104 baseline plus some F-105 and features as well as some others specifically required by the RAN. The RAN specific requirements weren't the issue, these were assessed and managed appropriately and successfully, the issue was making a system designed for a much larger ship fit into a smaller one while trying to build to print on an evolving design that had yet to be baselined. Considering that the Flight III Burke is seen as an overly tight compromise I am just wondering if the powers that be have learned from the past and are expecting problems.

Moral of the story, the RAN needed a larger, more flexible ship, they didn't get it, so severe compromise is going to be the name of the game for life of type.
 

r3mu511

New Member
^Compared to the spy1d(v), would you consider the 2nd-gen ceafar+ceamount (the upcoming higher-spec, tri-band version) as a "less dense" fit for the F-100 based hulls?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I joined the AWD project in 2009 when it was just starting to be realised that it was going to be anything but a build to print of an F-104 baseline plus some F-105 and features as well as some others specifically required by the RAN. The RAN specific requirements weren't the issue, these were assessed and managed appropriately and successfully, the issue was making a system designed for a much larger ship fit into a smaller one while trying to build to print on an evolving design that had yet to be baselined. Considering that the Flight III Burke is seen as an overly tight compromise I am just wondering if the powers that be have learned from the past and are expecting problems.

Moral of the story, the RAN needed a larger, more flexible ship, they didn't get it, so severe compromise is going to be the name of the game for life of type.
these are the punchlines
 

AegisFC

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
How did Navantia manage with the Aegis ships they built for the Spanish Armada?
From what I heard they barely did. The radar rooms are very tight for example. Part of the problem is that things like wave guides are designed for a Burke and no one wants to re-engineer and recertify a special variant for so few ships.
 

Oberon

Member
From what I heard they barely did. The radar rooms are very tight for example. Part of the problem is that things like wave guides are designed for a Burke and no one wants to re-engineer and recertify a special variant for so few ships.
Surely the RAN would have noticed this when the Alvaro de Bazan visited Sydney ten, or so, years ago.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top