Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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Alf662

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And to add to that, I still cant understand the reasoning, other than political, building the first 2 OPV's in Adelaide ? Gearing the workforce up for it, tooling etc to then move the whole operation to the west to make room for the Future Frigate.

Ideally that time between the AWD and commencement of the FF should be used to upgrade the CUF to help future proof it. Increasing the lift to max capacity would have been a good start surely ?

Now with the program that has been put into place, assuming it continues as planned, we will never have the capacity/capability to build ships like future supply ships, support ship, LHA's, LPD's etc, Lost opportunity I think !!

Cheers
I agree with your last statement. At some point Techport is going to have to be expanded, we already know that at the end of the 2020's a replacement for Choules is in the pipeline and at least one other largish support ship.

If the plans are not put in place now, we will be in same position as we are in with the current AOR replacements where we do not have the facilities to build such large ships domestically and the build ends up going overseas.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
From my understanding the building of the first 2 OPV's in Adelaide is meant to act as a bridging gap between the end of the AWD and the start of Sea 5000.

While building them all in SA would have made more sense, Seeing they are to be built in WA getting the first few built in SA does have it's advantages as it reduces the effect of the work force dispersing around the nation never to be seen again.

Better and probably cheaper to pay a premium splitting the OPV work then to pay a premium rebuilding the entire workforce for Sea 5000.

As to upgrades of the facilities, How long would the future expansions really take and to what extent would they limit ongoing operations? I'm thinking some are over estimating the time frame needed to build it as excluding the lifting point's most of it is made off site and effectively plugged into the system. When you allow 18+ months between the commissioning of each Frigate you may find you have the time to grow the ship lift in the time frame.

But did find this on the ship lift it's self, Interesting reading. http://steel.org.au/media/File/Techport_Shiplift_case_study2.pdf
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
And to add to that, I still cant understand the reasoning, other than political, building the first 2 OPV's in Adelaide ? Gearing the workforce up for it, tooling etc to then move the whole operation to the west to make room for the Future Frigate.

Ideally that time between the AWD and commencement of the FF should be used to upgrade the CUF to help future proof it. Increasing the lift to max capacity would have been a good start surely ?

Now with the program that has been put into place, assuming it continues as planned, we will never have the capacity/capability to build ships like future supply ships, support ship, LHA's, LPD's etc, Lost opportunity I think !!

Cheers
There is no imperative or benefit to build large support ships in Australia, we don't have a non military large shipbuilding industry.

Our naval shipbuilding future enterprise will be highly geared to and gain efficiencies from a continuous build of warships and submarines.
Support/supply vessels are needed periodically every few decades and are only one or two of. They will be expensive to tool up for, they have common features with commercial ships and resources are best served by building them in specialist yards.

Two recent projects illustrate the point; first the RN MARS build in S.Korea and second the absolute cluster of Canada's AOR replacement Berlin class.
The first is built on time to a very modest budget, the second will be years late and cost through the stratosphere.

Let's stick with the success storey and concentrate on what we will be good at. the Anzacs were a great example of what is possible and Success was the opposite.
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Now with the program that has been put into place, assuming it continues as planned, we will never have the capacity/capability to build ships like future supply ships, support ship, LHA's, LPD's etc, Lost opportunity I think !!

Cheers
Lost opportunity to go broke you mean. It's one thing doing a continuous build of similar ships and another entirely doing an interrupted sequence of different vessels. One keeps a work force continually employed and able to continually improve over a long period, the other will suffer from stop start building with sod all commonality between the ships and dead spots where the workforce evaporates and needs replacing and retraining.

Unless we intend to double the size of the RAN or think we'll ever make an Australian ship yard internationally competitive enough to build for other countries, there's just not enough work.

(EDIT: Sorry Assail. Somehow I missed your post making the same point but rather better)

oldsig
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
And to add to that, I still cant understand the reasoning, other than political, building the first 2 OPV's in Adelaide ? Gearing the workforce up for it, tooling etc to then move the whole operation to the west to make room for the Future Frigate.

Ideally that time between the AWD and commencement of the FF should be used to upgrade the CUF to help future proof it. Increasing the lift to max capacity would have been a good start surely ?

Now with the program that has been put into place, assuming it continues as planned, we will never have the capacity/capability to build ships like future supply ships, support ship, LHA's, LPD's etc, Lost opportunity I think !!

Cheers
Work was needed to keep the various teams in place, the fabricators, pipe fitters, electricians just to name a few, but also the critical project management teams, supervisors, test and activation teams, the people who have been pulling schedule back after early issues blew it. Its the teams of competent capable people that need to be retained through the provision of useful meaningful work.

I am more concerned with money being invested in building capability in a privately owned company, that has previously ripped the tax payer off, while BAE (Williamstown and Henderson), Forgacs (Newcastle), NQEA etc. who are already capable and could easily build blocks for OPV and future frigate, possibly also do work on future submarines, are being left out in the cold in favour of a rent seeking commercial operation that chose years ago to hire and train Filipinos instead of Australians. Already trained and experienced Australians are losing their jobs, having done the hard part of relearning what was forgotten as the successful and competitive naval ship building capability atrophied during the 2000s.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Lost opportunity to go broke you mean. It's one thing doing a continuous build of similar ships and another entirely doing an interrupted sequence of different vessels. One keeps a work force continually employed and able to continually improve over a long period, the other will suffer from stop start building with sod all commonality between the ships and dead spots where the workforce evaporates and needs replacing and retraining.

Unless we intend to double the size of the RAN or think we'll ever make an Australian ship yard internationally competitive enough to build for other countries, there's just not enough work.

(EDIT: Sorry Assail. Somehow I missed your post making the same point but rather better)

oldsig
Depends how we do it, if we do one ship at a time to a totally unique design with unique systems, from designers we have never worked with before, after having let the yard sit idle for years and the work force disperse, there will be issues. Hell we could even provide the yard with drawings and design data in French instead of English and a mix of imperial, metric and uns data but no indication of what is what and then blame the whole thing on the "lazy" local workers.

Alternatively we could specify how the data is to be presented, work with the designer to ensure everyone is on the same page, build blocks in various locations around the country and do the consolidation work at a suitable facility. Following launch the incomplete hull could even be transferred to a different facility for completion including systems integration, activation, test and trials. Big ships are actually easier for competent work forces than complex warships and can be used to keep multiple yards busy most of the time.

Only one yard need be large enough to consolidate and launch big ships but the comparatively simple work could be spread out around the country maintaining, not just strategic shipbuilding skills but the construction, fabrication, engineering, materials, procurement, logistics and project management skills that we were so short of in the mining construction boom.
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Depends how we do it, if we do one ship at a time to a totally unique design with unique systems, from designers we have never worked with before, after having let the yard sit idle for years and the work force disperse, there will be issues.
(emphasis above added by oldsig127)

Mostly agree with what you say, but which entirely fails to address the point I made - is there really enough work on large naval vessels generated by the RAN to prevent the yard sitting idle in between? And how often will we need to build more than a pair - three at most - of the same design this side of 2050? Sorry, can't see it. How many have we *bought* in the last 30 years?

Assail is dead right. There's simply no economy of scale in building tankers/replenishment ships etc which even the RN can see are more sensibly built where there is such economy

oldsig
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
(emphasis above added by oldsig127)

Mostly agree with what you say, but which entirely fails to address the point I made - is there really enough work on large naval vessels generated by the RAN to prevent the yard sitting idle in between? And how often will we need to build more than a pair - three at most - of the same design this side of 2050? Sorry, can't see it. How many have we *bought* in the last 30 years?

Assail is dead right. There's simply no economy of scale in building tankers/replenishment ships etc which even the RN can see are more sensibly built where there is such economy

oldsig
What many don't realise is ever since the final two FFGs were constructed under the Australian Frigate Project major vessels have predominantly been constructed in a modular manner at multiple locations. This permits yards to specialise on certain types of work, they can work predominately on keel blocks, blocks containing weapons systems, magazines etc. (VLS, gun hoists etc), superstructures, wave guides, control rooms, armour, or maybe just very good at producing simple blocks quickly and inexpensively.

This would permit a baseline of pretty much guaranteed work for multiple yards in multiple locations, each yard working to produce their particular blocks as efficiently as possible so as to win as many of the simpler common blocks as they can on merit. The ultimate prize would be winning consolidation and delivery work on new projects, i.e. prime contractor. There are even non shipbuilders who could conceivably bid for and win simpler blocks to keep workforces busy and productive during downturns in their regular work.

Due to modern vessels being increasingly more modular and being constructed, almost exclusively, from pre-fitted out blocks, super blocks and mega blocks it is possible to develop robust and effective processes that repeat and improve the same processes over and over again, without ever building a complete ship.

I make no secret of the fact I worked on subs destroyers and patrol boats but before that I was in automotive R&D, later years with manufacturers but initially with the components industry. What defence and specifically shipbuilding is doing is old hat in automotive, everything the vehicle assemblers don't absolutely have to do themselves they subcontract, even all design, development and engineering on some special/niche models, what they concentrate on is doing the same jobs over and over again evolving and improving processes as they go. Same with the components industry, continuous improvement and finding commonalities to permit them to apply the same improving and evolving processes to as many different products for as many different customers as possible. Exactly the same applies to ships, not entire ships, but the components that makeup the ships.

The repeatability of the processes to build ships is where savings and efficiencies can be made, the fabrication of stringers, welding of shell plate, bulkheads, decks, pipe segments, cable terminations, equipment foundations, same things over and over again. Taylor Brothers did the accommodation outfit on the AWDs, imagine flat pack cabins, specialist teams sent by them to any facility to install the kits on any ship they are contracted to do. Thanks to ANZAC ASMD and AWD (maybe FFGUP to a lesser extent) we now have a lot of local expertise integrating high end combat systems.

IMO fat ships are worth building locally because, although they could be built cheaper elsewhere, there is far more to it than sticker price. There is the usual argument of locally spent dollars remaining in the economy but there is also the fact they add to the critical mass of local capability, building simpler ships locally helps reduce the cost and amortises the investment of building complex vessels locally. Outside of shipbuilding it also supports mining, steel and construction industries in lean time and makes it cheaper to improve and build infrastructure to support and facilitate boom times.
 

aussienscale

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Depends how we do it, if we do one ship at a time to a totally unique design with unique systems, from designers we have never worked with before, after having let the yard sit idle for years and the work force disperse, there will be issues. Hell we could even provide the yard with drawings and design data in French instead of English and a mix of imperial, metric and uns data but no indication of what is what and then blame the whole thing on the "lazy" local workers.

Alternatively we could specify how the data is to be presented, work with the designer to ensure everyone is on the same page, build blocks in various locations around the country and do the consolidation work at a suitable facility. Following launch the incomplete hull could even be transferred to a different facility for completion including systems integration, activation, test and trials. Big ships are actually easier for competent work forces than complex warships and can be used to keep multiple yards busy most of the time.

Only one yard need be large enough to consolidate and launch big ships but the comparatively simple work could be spread out around the country maintaining, not just strategic shipbuilding skills but the construction, fabrication, engineering, materials, procurement, logistics and project management skills that we were so short of in the mining construction boom.
Cheers Volk, yes that is what I was getting at, as usual you put the words together better than I can. In the current scheme of things and as GF has mentioned, we are putting all our eggs into the one basket, this work should be spread over multiple yards, and as you have also noted in following post that modular construction methods are evolving.

Consolidation of blocks and then fitout at another location would be pretty simple, Williamstown anyone ?

Cheers
 

Alf662

New Member
IMO fat ships are worth building locally because, although they could be built cheaper elsewhere, there is far more to it than sticker price. There is the usual argument of locally spent dollars remaining in the economy but there is also the fact they add to the critical mass of local capability, building simpler ships locally helps reduce the cost and amortises the investment of building complex vessels locally. Outside of shipbuilding it also supports mining, steel and construction industries in lean time and makes it cheaper to improve and build infrastructure to support and facilitate boom times.
Its also about the level of automation. To keep crewing levels down the level of automation is increased. The bigger the ship, the bigger the automation component. It may not be a high end combat system, but it still requires a significant level of engineering that is not only repeatable, but transferable to other industry sectors.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Its also about the level of automation. To keep crewing levels down the level of automation is increased. The bigger the ship, the bigger the automation component. It may not be a high end combat system, but it still requires a significant level of engineering that is not only repeatable, but transferable to other industry sectors.
I think maybe all parliamentarians, perhaps eve candidates, should have to undertake and pass, or already be certified in some form of continuous improvement regime / system. There's Six Sigma, Lean, Lean Six Sigma, as well as other methodologies that all work, the key being, having, understanding and working to a methodology.

Many politicians will scream, whinge, sook and come up with every reason they can think of not to do this but it actually has worked in every situation where it has been correctly implemented. While it wont get rid of "captains calls", ill conceived reactionary responses and shear bloody mindedness, it will equip the majority with the tools and understanding to respond to such. The productivity commission pulls one of their regular, usually politically inspired hatchet jobs on an industry they are ideologically opposed to and MPs will be equipped to understand and pick apart the report, to drill down and ask relevant questions.

In fact, I would like to see many of the principles under pinning the various continuous improvement methodologies, along with critical thinking, taught to as many students as possible, in school. The obstacles to this would be many teachers not having any background or relevant experience in the methodologies, as well as active opposition from both the left and right extremes of politics and definitely from religious fundamentalists. This is because these groups rely on people not thinking, let alone analysing what they are told and just accepting what they are to as a matter of faith.

Probably to great a stretch teaching it at school but just imagine how differently we would be governed if politicians actually defined, measured, analysed, improved, controlled, instead of throwing rocks at each other and trying for "gottcha" moments.
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
I think maybe all parliamentarians, perhaps eve candidates, should have to undertake and pass, or already be certified in some form of continuous improvement regime / system. There's Six Sigma, Lean, Lean Six Sigma, as well as other methodologies that all work, the key being, having, understanding and working to a methodology.

Many politicians will scream, whinge, sook and come up with every reason they can think of not to do this but it actually has worked in every situation where it has been correctly implemented. While it wont get rid of "captains calls", ill conceived reactionary responses and shear bloody mindedness, it will equip the majority with the tools and understanding to respond to such. The productivity commission pulls one of their regular, usually politically inspired hatchet jobs on an industry they are ideologically opposed to and MPs will be equipped to understand and pick apart the report, to drill down and ask relevant questions.

In fact, I would like to see many of the principles under pinning the various continuous improvement methodologies, along with critical thinking, taught to as many students as possible, in school. The obstacles to this would be many teachers not having any background or relevant experience in the methodologies, as well as active opposition from both the left and right extremes of politics and definitely from religious fundamentalists. This is because these groups rely on people not thinking, let alone analysing what they are told and just accepting what they are to as a matter of faith.

Probably to great a stretch teaching it at school but just imagine how differently we would be governed if politicians actually defined, measured, analysed, improved, controlled, instead of throwing rocks at each other and trying for "gottcha" moments.
I am a Secondary Science/Biology/Chemistry Teacher. Would be very interested in any links/resources you could point me to that are relevant to this...
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I am a Secondary Science/Biology/Chemistry Teacher. Would be very interested in any links/resources you could point me to that are relevant to this...
I have a fair bit of hard copy on it from the training I've participated in over the years but this site:
Six Sigma Methodology

seems to cover it pretty well.

The is actually a stack of reference material online and multiple training providers. The thing I found most interesting is how quickly solutions became undeniably obvious on my projects, be it a recurring breakdown on a particular product or a non- performing administrative process. Just applying the methodologies and appropriate tools meant the answer became obvious during the measurement, or even definition phase. In the product breakdown it was discovered 100% of the breakdowns were due to a component that had been replaced to mitigate another issue, that on investigation, had never actually occurred, ever, so didn't need to be mitigated. The administration process turned out to be due to a senior executive bypassing the process because he inserted himself into it as an additional decision stage and only worked on hard copy, not electronic, thereby breaking the existing systems ability to track progress and provide data.

A very interesting area, it has worked in finance and banking as successfully as manufacturing as it is about the processes of doing things. Also check out the Theory of Constraints, very interesting if somewhat counterintuitive for people who have become set in their ways. It has some great exercises kids will love.
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
I have a fair bit of hard copy on it from the training I've participated in over the years but this site:
Six Sigma Methodology

seems to cover it pretty well.

The is actually a stack of reference material online and multiple training providers. The thing I found most interesting is how quickly solutions became undeniably obvious on my projects, be it a recurring breakdown on a particular product or a non- performing administrative process. Just applying the methodologies and appropriate tools meant the answer became obvious during the measurement, or even definition phase. In the product breakdown it was discovered 100% of the breakdowns were due to a component that had been replaced to mitigate another issue, that on investigation, had never actually occurred, ever, so didn't need to be mitigated. The administration process turned out to be due to a senior executive bypassing the process because he inserted himself into it as an additional decision stage and only worked on hard copy, not electronic, thereby breaking the existing systems ability to track progress and provide data.

A very interesting area, it has worked in finance and banking as successfully as manufacturing as it is about the processes of doing things. Also check out the Theory of Constraints, very interesting if somewhat counterintuitive for people who have become set in their ways. It has some great exercises kids will love.
Thanks, I will look into it. I am at a reasonably well resourced school in a position that gives me some scope to explore ideas like this (and possibly get some traction with them). Leave it with me and I'll let you know how I get on ;)
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
I am a Secondary Science/Biology/Chemistry Teacher. Would be very interested in any links/resources you could point me to that are relevant to this...
Open ended investigations and practicals are obvious places to incorporate these concepts and get students to actually use them and understand them.
5S/Lean production/PDCA/TQM/TPS. This is particularly useful for junior GAT classes where content it light for those type of students.

Probably to great a stretch teaching it at school but just imagine how differently we would be governed if politicians actually defined, measured, analysed, improved, controlled, instead of throwing rocks at each other and trying for "gottcha" moments.
That is Australian politics and Australian politicians. What your describing would be some sort of competent administrator land, a Meritocracy (Singapore?).

The problem we have now is state governments are getting in on the act and they may or may not be on the same side as federal counterparts. We don't even need the media to do a hack job on it, the state and federal pollies will have a go themselves directly.

I hope it changes. Labor and Liberals seem to have some basic understanding on some key issues (defence is one, some key finance, environment are others) and if they can just sit down and stick to it we will all be better off. It is possible to have a non-adversarial democracy. I feel that too much is focused on law rather than good management and good governance and understanding.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Thanks, I will look into it. I am at a reasonably well resourced school in a position that gives me some scope to explore ideas like this (and possibly get some traction with them). Leave it with me and I'll let you know how I get on ;)
Look forward to hearing how it goes. I have found its one of those things that you may not get the opportunity to run formal projects but you get a working understanding of the various tools and techniques, when and how to use them, and perhaps most importantly, were to find the information and references to jog your memory. It even provides a real world practical use for statistics.

The one down side is I attempted a stats course after doing Six Sigma for the first time. The irony is going from a masters level course, conducted by an associate professor with a physics and engineering background, supported by experienced practitioners with real world experience in successfully applying it with measurable results saving millions, to an under graduate level course taught by an overseas trained statistics lecturer, who has never worked in industry and has never hears of continuous improvement let alone six sigma. It was so poorly designed and taught I dropped it and when credit transfer / rpl was refused I walked away from the degree. Basically in my experience, the sort of introductory statistics taught in Science, Arts, Business degrees is so irrelevant to that used in continuous improvement as to be not just useless, but confusing and damaging to people who actually need to use it as opposed to just passing it for the grade point.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
They have started trialing the Chook F onboard the LHD Canberra. They have to remove the blades before striking the chooks below deck. Article has photos.
I'm not sure they do, they have a manual blade folding system, but depending on space, I'm not sure they can remove the rotors below deck... Removing the rotors by crane every time you wanted to hangar them would be an extremely inefficient process...

The Chooks like all other Army aircraft have manual blade folding system. No automatic system is available, that I can find... :)
 
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