Royal New Zealand Air Force

[Zero Alpha]

It was interesting that until the Aussies decided to go with the Sprites, the RNZN and I believe the NZG were seriously looking at the Lynx, which in hindsight would have been the far better acquisition. I will have to find the reference again.

Lynx was definitely shortlisted. Haven't heard anything to say it was ever the first choice though. No idea why. Of course there are widespread comments on the internet that it's high-demand for maintenance, and the Wildcat has been heavily criticised as being very expensive compared to the capabilities it offers and alternatives.

I've got an old staff paper that talks about Seahawk as a serious contender for operating from the amphibious support ship (mid-1980s version), along with the 'advanced' version of the Sea King commando carrier and the Super Puma. It noted that Seahawk didn't meet Army's lift requirement.

Seasprite actually does some roles very well. It's just that roles that include needing to use the cargo compartment aren't amongst them!

 

[40 deg south]

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/gearbox-issue-threatens-a400m-delivery-rate-424729/

Further delays on A400 delivery.

Typical teething problems, but certainly not news Airbus or its customers wanted to hear.

 

[ngatimozart]

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/gearbox-issue-threatens-a400m-delivery-rate-424729/

Further delays on A400 delivery.

Typical teething problems, but certainly not news Airbus or its customers wanted to hear.

Yes I read that yesterday. Undoubtedly the problems will be rectified but not a good look. If NZ does go down the A400M road this will be sorted by time we have ours built (hopefully). Now all we have to do is wait for the long gestated DWP.

 

[RegR]

Yes I read that yesterday. Undoubtedly the problems will be rectified but not a good look. If NZ does go down the A400M road this will be sorted by time we have ours built (hopefully). Now all we have to do is wait for the long gestated DWP.

Agreed, better these issues are identified and rectified now rather than after the fact, especially for any no doubt limited fleet a small AF like us will aqquire (if we did) as even 1 out of action later will have major effects DF wide (especially with no back up type....) but as you say still quite a way off in the distance and seemingly getting further so no actual worrying just yet. No doubt the heads are still watching with interest though, get it sorted airbus!

 

[kiwipatriot69]

Agreed, better these issues are identified and rectified now rather than after the fact, especially for any no doubt limited fleet a small AF like us will aqquire (if we did) as even 1 out of action later will have major effects DF wide (especially with no back up type....) but as you say still quite a way off in the distance and seemingly getting further so no actual worrying just yet. No doubt the heads are still watching with interest though, get it sorted airbus!

Given how long it takes to order, manufacture and deliver,introduce into service these aircraft it would seem we should be ordering these A400m NOW, way too much procrastination is going on with the DWP. Britains RAF and the french have them in service, and are happy with them.

As i looked up, the first two hercules C130 went through their SLEP in 2010 and so its only a four year time frame left for those two of the expected ten years time they were meant to be extended by.

 

[ngatimozart]

Given how long it takes to order, manufacture and deliver,introduce into service these aircraft it would seem we should be ordering these A400m NOW, way too much procrastination is going on with the DWP. Britains RAF and the french have them in service, and are happy with them.

As i looked up, the first two hercules C130 went through their SLEP in 2010 and so its only a four year time frame left for those two of the expected ten years time they were meant to be extended by.

The NZG rarely makes defence procurement decisions in a hurry or even quickly. If they decide to acquire it and even if they ordered the A400M from Airbus A&D today, the earliest available production slot is in 2022, which means probably around 2025 before the first aircraft is handed over.

The DWP will in all likelihood not stipulate platform types but instead just stipulate capabilities that the NZG require for NZDF. They may however indicate if they intend to decrease or increase capabilities in particular areas. Generally it will be the accompanying documents that spell out the fine points.

 

[MrConservative]

Given how long it takes to order, manufacture and deliver,introduce into service these aircraft it would seem we should be ordering these A400m NOW, way too much procrastination is going on with the DWP. Britains RAF and the french have them in service, and are happy with them.

That is assuming that the DWP will plumb for new A400M's. There are other options that have being looked at. I would not count out any possible permutation to deliver the FAMC. Much of it will come down to negotiations in the months ahead.

 

[kiwipatriot69]

That is assuming that the DWP will plumb for new A400M's. There are other options that have being looked at. I would not count out any possible permutation to deliver the FAMC. Much of it will come down to negotiations in the months ahead.

My concern also is that any new aircraft purchase with increased capability will lead to a cut in numbers as justification, ie like the NH90. Hopefully in the mean time we can keep up the operational tempo before we start having serious mechanical issues, or begin retiring them.

 

[ngatimozart]

The RNZAF has it's first T6C Texan wings course well underway with 10 students who started in February. A second intake with 12 students is due to start in July or August.

On another note, a 40 Sqn Hercules crew took out the top place in a US based tactical airlift exercise and competition, Exercise Green Flag 16-06. 17 crews from the US, Australia, Sweden and NZ took part. Link

 

[Rob c]

My concern also is that any new aircraft purchase with increased capability will lead to a cut in numbers as justification, ie like the NH90. Hopefully in the mean time we can keep up the operational tempo before we start having serious mechanical issues, or begin retiring them.

There is a minimum number of aircraft that are required to carry out what the RNZAF is tasked to do, Bigger and more capable aircraft cannot be at 2 places at once. In the case of the NH90's they can be supplemented by the A109's in some tasks, this keeps the total usable fleet numbers up. During the UH1H/Sioux days there was little the Sioux could do to supplement the huey. This lesson was learnt in the 1980's when we had to buy the extra P 3 to achieve the desired role. Whether it has been remembered is another thing, politicians have short memories. In the case of the C130 replacement, I would imagine that the purchase of a lesser number more capable aircraft would lead to the purchase of some cheaper less capable aircraft to supplement the numbers. It is generally acknowledged that the current fleet is a squeeze to perform what is required, however a newer aircraft with less serviceability problems may help in this regard. The politicians will have the last say and they can be unpredictable.

 

[Rob c]

The RNZAF has it's first T6C Texan wings course well underway with 10 students who started in February. A second intake with 12 students is due to start in July or August.

On another note, a 40 Sqn Hercules crew took out the top place in a US based tactical airlift exercise and competition, Exercise Green Flag 16-06. 17 crews from the US, Australia, Sweden and NZ took part.

Where I live I hear and see(clouds permitting) the T6's on a daily basis, but as they do their training at a higher altitude than the old CT4's so they are not as visible. What was very visible recently was the ANZAC demo over the town by the Deere Spitfire, which spent some time doing figure of 8's over the town at a good visible distance. The sound effects were magnificent.

 

[ngatimozart]

Where I live I hear and see(clouds permitting) the T6's on a daily basis, but as they do their training at a higher altitude than the old CT4's so they are not as visible. What was very visible recently was the ANZAC demo over the town by the Deere Spitfire, which spent some time doing figure of 8's over the town at a good visible distance. The sound effects were magnificent.

Nothing like the exquisite music of the RR Merlin at full noise.

 

[Zero Alpha]

There is a minimum number of aircraft that are required to carry out what the RNZAF is tasked to do, Bigger and more capable aircraft cannot be at 2 places at once. In the case of the NH90's they can be supplemented by the A109's in some tasks, this keeps the total usable fleet numbers up.

That's all true enough, but if you look at the capability a pair of NH90s gives you to move troops over a fixed distance, you need a much bigger Huey fleet - with more crews.

2x NH90 = 1 platoon lift. 8 aircrew for the task. Max distance = anywhere in a TG AO.

5x UH1 = 1 platoon lift. 20 aircrew for task. Max distance.....well, if armour is fitted.... maybe anywhere in a company AO..if the weather and altitude are right.

 

[Zero Alpha]

That's all true enough, but if you look at the capability a pair of NH90s gives you to move troops over a fixed distance, you need a much bigger Huey fleet - with more crews.

2x NH90 = 1 platoon lift. 8 aircrew for the task. Max distance = anywhere in a TG AO.

5x UH1 = 1 platoon lift. 20 aircrew for task. Max distance.....well, if armour is fitted.... maybe anywhere in a company AO..if the weather and altitude are right.

Went searching for this extract as it details some of the issue the Huey had. While fewer in number, the NH90 has increased capability (what the platform can do) and capacity (how much the fleet can do):

For example, if an incident required the deployment of a platoon-size response group, the operation would have to be executed with transportation limitations in mind. A minimum of four Iroquois would take at least two trips to transport the whole platoon to its position. This meant the first troops would have to be dropped off a safe distance from any likely threat to ensure that they could adequately defend themselves until the remainder of the platoon arrived. If only two Iroquois were available, this type of response would be practically impossible, leaving road transport as the only option, and therefore losing the speed of response.

The NZDF has been aware of these limitations for some time. A report on a joint exercise held in 1996 noted that attempting to tactically move a Company of close to 100 men with three Iroquois is laughable at best. The report also noted that the first troops inserted by the Iroquois (a total of twelve) are required to maintain security in the area until the second insertion occurs approximately 15-20 minutes later – thus a single company move over approximately 10km requires in the order of 1 hour 40 minutes.

Source

 

[MrConservative]

The operational requirements in the capability definition phase had the expectation that three NH90 helicopters would be required for the Air Movement of an Army platoon, with a minimum of 27 soldiers and equipment in a single wave to ensure synchronised arrival of combat elements.

The current problem with just 8 NH-90s is that the numbers do not meet the requirements of sustaining air mobility support of a sustained CATG deployment of possibly a 3 year commitment (viz UNSC Chp VII scenario) concurrent with an unscheduled LTG sized deployment that may for example require a NH-90's lift capability (Viz Cyclone Winston). Seaprites and LUH's can only go so far in delivering a air mobility capability.

Option 5C of 10 NH90 aircraft would have provided the optimum numbers for concurrent tasks and thus would have met all key operational requirements including a domestic SAR / MAOT emergency.

 

[KiwiRob]

Option 5C of 10 NH90 aircraft would have provided the optimum numbers for concurrent tasks and thus would have met all key operational requirements including a domestic SAR / MAOT emergency.

Do you think there is much chance of the govt (any NZ Govt) stumping up for the additional two NH-90's?

 

[MrConservative]

Do you think there is much chance of the govt (any NZ Govt) stumping up for the additional two NH-90's?

Probably not under Big Jerry's watch. He is not really a fan of the NH90 but mostly due to it not been available when urgently needed last year per Vanuatu. However the die was caste a decade ago and alternatives to strike the right balance are difficult.

 

[RegR]

As a recent reference ET 99 utilised 6 hueys to support a Bn sized deployment (arguably the largest we would realistically do and even then not without issues so not likely to be repeated anytime soon) in the surge dropping to 4 after everyone was established so comparitively 3 NH90s would be needed to support our largest deployment (throw in a lone A109 for SAR, overwatch, contingency etc for good measure) and you have a pretty standard helo package for us. This could then downsize to 2 NH90s and a A109 once it all settled down if need be (though probably not as likely for redundancy reasons). Aus army also had 3 blackhawks supporting their battalion in timor leste post 06 ops so obviously a considered option.

That would leave 5 NH90s and 4 A109 in NZ for tasking, training, rotation and maintainence keeping in mind that with main effort being a Bn gp overseas, not much else commital wise will be happening around this time due to manpower required to sustain, raise, retrain such a large deployment (for NZ). So realistically the most NH90s we would deploy at once should be 3 at the most, 2 for coy sized ops and 1 for smaller tasks along with the obvious A109 option to supplement or even conduct said task (unlike the sioux of old).

I don't see us getting any 'extra' 90s just yet which is why I think a way to alleviate any perceived 'shortage' of usable frames is to just replace the seasprites with a mix of NFH90 and marinised 90s when the time comes (obviously coinciding with naval ship replacements as well, namely ANZACs and otagos). Give 6 squadron say 4 NFHs, 3 standard 90s and marinise 2 of the extra 3 109s and there are your extra NH90s (for a total of 11 baseline NH90s). Makes sense as no doubt a majority user will be this JATF we keep hearing about operating from naval vessels so why not keep them with the SME squadron. 3 standard 90s under navy control just gives govt another option for taskings such as TC Winston, DOC island tasks, organic JATF flight etc and cuts down on required currency training keeping the likes of 3 sqaudron fully versed in maritime ops as working from sea is completely different to merely being transported via sea, a key difference between 6sqn and 3sqn. This will also open up more tasks to our naval crews with a more optioned fleet that would otherwise be the domain of their air force counterparts, sharing the load so to speak.

 

[t68]

Probably not under Big Jerry's watch. He is not really a fan of the NH90 but mostly due to it not been available when urgently needed last year per Vanuatu. However the die was caste a decade ago and alternatives to strike the right balance are difficult.

I still find it strange even for NZ standards that they hobbled the operation guidelines for less than a 100 million. The original contract was 771m NZD at the time which includes spares and associated paraphernalia when two more machines was clearly needed.

 

[John Fedup]

I still find it strange even for NZ standards that they hobbled the operation guidelines for less than a 100 million. The original contract was 771m NZD at the time which includes spares and associated paraphernalia when two more machines was clearly needed.

Canada bought. AW 101s for SAR in 1997 after cancelling an order for a package of naval and SAR helicopters in 1992. The SAR order in 1997 was a Fluster Cuck, no proper spares inventory! Luckily the failed USA Presidential VIP program allowed the RCAF to buy 7+ AW 101 airframes for parts. I am not sure if the Cyclone 148 (H-92, civilian S-92, our Sea King replacement) will be better. Hopefully the parts commonalities between the S-92 and our Cyclone 148 will provide for better readyness. State of the art kit is great but only if it can be supported.