Russian Hostility to USAF and USN

[swerve]

Oh yes I am serious, I said virtually because bomber already offloaded its
4 FAB 250- 270, and the only weapon it still posses was 23 MM cannon and I guess personal hand guns of the pilots for completeness sake.

Well because I do happened to have the whole brain and not a half, I brought this to highlight the wast difference in severity between two incidents.
And I am glad you noticed it too. So if one was reasonably ok with the second incident, surely, even having half of the brain, one would be reasonably ok with the first incident too.

Well I do not think situations are similar, quite opposite, as I already mentioned above.

You've not addressed any of the points I raised. What connection or similarity is there between the Baltic & Syria? Where's the war in the Baltic? Has anyone shot down any Russian aircraft in international airspace there? Have any NATO ships shelled Russian territory? Where was the US ship that was buzzed? Was it in Russian waters, or on the edge of them, veering in & out? Or was it a couple of hours steaming away, in international waters? All these distinguish the Baltic from the Syrian border, & the events preceding the two incidents from each other.

The Su-24 on the Syria-Turkish border was on a bombing mission. Do you really think that it was significant that it had already dropped its bombs? Do you expect the Turks to track every Russian & Syrian aircraft closely enough for every Turkish pilot & ground controller to know the weapons state of every one of them that's in the air, at all times?

Thank you for free and helpful suggestion, I understand that you only expressing you desire to care, in an unusual way. However perhaps before making suggestions like this it would be helpful to not just develop an ability to read what you see, but also understand what you read.

Pot, meet kettle. You're ignoring almost all the relevant facts.

 

[SolarWind]

ROE are such a funny thing. They only need to be adjusted just a little in order to start a war. Holding joint naval exercises with a nation hostile to Russia just 75 km from their naval base is oh so innocent. Same thing for flying spy planes next to their border.

 

[John Fedup]

ROE are such a funny thing. They only need to be adjusted just a little in order to start a war. Holding joint naval exercises with a nation hostile to Russia just 75 km from their naval base is oh so innocent. Same thing for flying spy planes next to their border.

Nothing that Russia or numerous other nations do. Good ISR can prevent screw ups from happening.

 

[swerve]

ROE are such a funny thing. They only need to be adjusted just a little in order to start a war. Holding joint naval exercises with a nation hostile to Russia just 75 km from their naval base is oh so innocent. Same thing for flying spy planes next to their border.

It's difficult for Poland or Lithuania to train without approaching Russian waters, given the geography. Do you think Russia should be able to veto actions by NATO countries which are fully in accordance with international law, in their own territorial waters & off their own coasts?

Don't forget that they're not doing anything that Russia doesn't do - except that they're more careful about crossing borders than Russia is. Ask Estonia how often Russian military aircraft intrude into its airspace. The Russian ambassador must get sick of having to listen to the complaints. The NATO Baltic air patrol was scrambled every couple of days last year, & the number is increasing. According to your thinking, Russia must be trying to start a war.

RAF Typhoon & the Russian Air Force off the Lithuanian coast.

 

[Think_Tank]

ROE are such a funny thing. They only need to be adjusted just a little in order to start a war. Holding joint naval exercises with a nation hostile to Russia just 75 km from their naval base is oh so innocent. Same thing for flying spy planes next to their border.

I don't think it is a concern NATO forces operating on international water avoiding the area because Russian naval base is 75 km away, as long as they are operating on international water, law is a law. If I were Russian I will move my naval base away easy reach of NATO forces in event of hostilities. For the last several years Russia has been intruding NATO including US airspace and recorded interdictions are black and white, so what is fuss.

 

[Todjaeger]

Guys take it easy. It's just a case of boys being boys and the Media blowing it out of proportion. Russians don't consider the US their enemy. Those days are long over.

Yes, it is just a case of "boys being boys,". Until an international incident occurs, which could involve the death of service personnel, damage or loss of aircraft, and/or damage to naval vessels. Consider the incident I referenced of the mid-air collision between a PRC J-8, and a USN EP-3E SIGINT aircraft in international airspace off the island of Hainan. The Chinese pilot died after his fighter jet collided with the larger USN aircraft. The PRC fighter jet was destroyed, and the USN aircraft was badly damaged and the crew had to make an emergency landing on the Chinese island of Hainan, where the crew of 24 were interrogated by the Chinese.

It is also in question whether there was any compromise of US SIGINT capabilities, since the PRC may have been able to examine the EP-3 before it was disassembled and transported off Hainan roughly three months later.

It seems there have been a number of incidents of Chinese and Russian fighter aircraft flying very close to US aircraft (within 10 metres) in the last few years. Describing that as just "boys being boys," IMO is naive.

 

[SolarWind]

It's difficult for Poland or Lithuania to train without approaching Russian waters, given the geography. Do you think Russia should be able to veto actions by NATO countries which are fully in accordance with international law, in their own territorial waters & off their own coasts?

Don't forget that they're not doing anything that Russia doesn't do - except that they're more careful about crossing borders than Russia is. Ask Estonia how often Russian military aircraft intrude into its airspace. The Russian ambassador must get sick of having to listen to the complaints. The NATO Baltic air patrol was scrambled every couple of days last year, & the number is increasing. According to your thinking, Russia must be trying to start a war.

RAF Typhoon & the Russian Air Force off the Lithuanian coast.

It is difficult for Poland and Lithuania to hold naval exercises since they don't have much in the way of a navy. I doubt their exercises are of concern to Russia. Russia otoh is very likely to be very concerned by US naval exercises so close to Russia yet so far away from North America, and they are likely to continue their "dangerous flight maneuvers". Given this situation, it sounds silly when our leaders complain about maritime and flight safety concerns these flights pose, yet it may be madness to seriously consider reinterpreting ROEs and actually start shooting.

 

[SolarWind]

I don't think it is a concern NATO forces operating on international water avoiding the area because Russian naval base is 75 km away, as long as they are operating on international water, law is a law. If I were Russian I will move my naval base away easy reach of NATO forces in event of hostilities. For the last several years Russia has been intruding NATO including US airspace and recorded interdictions are black and white, so what is fuss.

Everyone involved keeps claiming they operate in international waters and airspace, and assert their rights to that under international treaties. Behind that is recon, intimidation, and a war of words. It is almost like a war is brewing, which scares the living h out of me.

But one observation is correct, Russia keeps raising bets and hopes Europe will fold.

 

[Todjaeger]

Everyone involved keeps claiming they operate in international waters and airspace, and assert their rights to that under international treaties. Behind that is recon, intimidation, and a war of words. It is almost like a war is brewing, which scares the living h out of me.

But one observation is correct, Russia keeps raising bets and hopes Europe will fold.

IIRC the issue a number of Euro nations had with some of the Russian Tu-95 flights through international airspace (over the English Channel I believe) was how the flights were handled. IIRC the flights were through heavily trafficked commercial airspace, and the Tu-95's did not respond to ATC, or have transponders on to ease the ability of ATC to manage them and other aircraft, to avoid mid-air collisions. It was not a question of whether the aircraft had the 'right' to conduct a recon mission, it was that they could caused an accident.

This game of brinksmanship will need to change at some point, since unless the escalation stops, an incident will occur eventually.

 

[gf0012-aust]

It seems there have been a number of incidents of Chinese and Russian fighter aircraft flying very close to US aircraft (within 10 metres) in the last few years. Describing that as just "boys being boys," IMO is naive.

breaches of skandinavian air space have gone up by over 800% since 2012.

its a wonder that nothing has gone wrong to date - and I'd be saying its skandinavian common sense that has been the gatekeeper

and there is the exponential increase in UD alerts in the region - again over 500% increase since 2012

this is deliberate action on the russians part. its not just posturing, its a conscious decision to elevate the friction

the swedes certainly won't continue to exercise patience and restraint

 

[Think_Tank]

Everyone involved keeps claiming they operate in international waters and airspace, and assert their rights to that under international treaties. Behind that is recon, intimidation, and a war of words. It is almost like a war is brewing, which scares the living h out of me.

But one observation is correct, Russia keeps raising bets and hopes Europe will fold.

I thought we are talking about Russian fighter planes buzzing on US naval forces along international waters but you are claiming US naval operation is a recon and sign of intimidation is out of the question. All US surface combatants are equipped with sophisticated radar the same as the Russian. Recon is the word applies when an spy surface ship or plane travelling along Russian boundaries. but US naval forces cruising international water can't be construed conducting recon. You are not the only person scared of war specially when two opposing forces are imminnent of clashing each other but you have to admit the fact that US/NATO and Russia are vying for world military dominance and confrontation is possible in a given time.

 

[SolarWind]

IIRC the issue a number of Euro nations had with some of the Russian Tu-95 flights through international airspace (over the English Channel I believe) was how the flights were handled. IIRC the flights were through heavily trafficked commercial airspace, and the Tu-95's did not respond to ATC, or have transponders on to ease the ability of ATC to manage them and other aircraft, to avoid mid-air collisions. It was not a question of whether the aircraft had the 'right' to conduct a recon mission, it was that they could caused an accident.

This game of brinksmanship will need to change at some point, since unless the escalation stops, an incident will occur eventually.

If there was really a possibility of accident in the incident you are referring to, then Russia's aim may have been to intimidate, as these bombers are not recon planes. When writing about dangerous air maneuvers above, I was referring to the more recent incidents involving US Air Force and Navy. Russia's game in Europe appears to involve consciously raising stakes to pressure Europe to end ballistic missile defense program, and more recently to end sanctions.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Russia's game in Europe appears to involve consciously raising stakes to pressure Europe to end ballistic missile defense program, and more recently to end sanctions.

posturing is doing the opposite

poland, lithuania, latvia, estonia are amping up requests for a US presence on home soil - and are looking at creating a mini security block separate to NATO

swede, norway, finland, denmark have seen russian air space violations go up 800% since 2012 and are now talking about distributed force balancing between their countries and at forming a separate Skandinavian block

Chinas ridiculous attempts to now use her economic clout as a wedge around territorial issues in the SCS and ECS has resulted in all the affected parties seeking greater US involvement in the region, offering up bases, and buying US equipment and training opportunities - even Vietnam

The US couldn't have designed their relationships better if they had tried it as deliberate policy.

 

[ngatimozart]

I thought we are talking about Russian fighter planes buzzing on US naval forces along international waters but you are claiming US naval operation is a recon and sign of intimidation is out of the question. All US surface combatants are equipped with sophisticated radar the same as the Russian. Recon is the word applies when an spy surface ship or plane travelling along Russian boundaries. but US naval forces cruising international water can't be construed conducting recon. You are not the only person scared of war specially when two opposing forces are imminnent of clashing each other but you have to admit the fact that US/NATO and Russia are vying for world military dominance and confrontation is possible in a given time.

Be very careful regarding regarding remarks that can be construed as political and / or inflammatory. They are against the forum rules which should read.

 

[Toblerone]

I don't think Russia is going for "world military dominance".

They want to control their neighbouring countries, have their bases and ally in Syria etc. And not have NATO presence near their borders of course.

 

[Think_Tank]

Be very careful regarding regarding remarks that can be construed as political and / or inflammatory. They are against the forum rules which should read.

Thank you for reminding to be careful with remarks as political nor inflamatory. Politics is always part of world struggle wether you like it or not unless you were born yesterday and discussion in this forum is non-deregatory but rather normal exchange of ideas in general. Why don't you post your idea rather than posing as my grandmother.

Mod edit: Mandatory one week vacation to read the rules and re-think the engagement style. Backchatting a member of the Mod team is not something we find amusing, or have patience for.
-Preceptor

 

[Feanor]

Guys this forum is for military discussion. In rare cases some relevant political discussion may slip through, but this is not a forum about "world struggle". We are not your grandparents, we are the mod team. If you want to discuss politics, there are plenty of other forums that allow it.

 

[swerve]

Russia's game in Europe appears to involve consciously raising stakes to pressure Europe to end ballistic missile defense program, and more recently to end sanctions.

Look up the sun & the north wind. The story's over 2500 years old, & not exactly unknown. Putin has no excuse for not foreseeing that his policy would have the opposite result to the one desired.

Increasing a military threat is a pretty reliable method of triggering increased military readiness in those threatened, & an unwillingness to be nice to the threatener.