Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
and now the chinese.....

China eyes Canada's Northwest Passage as fast shipping route via Arctic - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

one wonders whether they will regard it as canadian or russian when they seek to drive a military vessel through the NW Passage - they have to get permission from someone if they do
Might have to ask the Russians for permission (or provide cash stuffed envelopes to certain people). As for Canada, no need. Can't maintain sovereignty when it is mostly ice covered with our pi$$-ant navy. If the polar cap melts, the patrol area would be massively increased. Denmark could do a better job.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Here's another piece of depressing news about what a disaster junior is for Canadian defence in general. The RCN, which is in the worst shape, seems to be taking the brunt of the delays and cutbacks. This is the same RCN that junior promised to beef up with savings from a non-F-35 fighter acquisition and transfer said funds to the RCN. What a lying sack of excrement.

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/natio...rctic-patrol-ships-cyclone-helicopter-delayed
 

Blackshoe

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
and now the chinese.....

China eyes Canada's Northwest Passage as fast shipping route via Arctic - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

one wonders whether they will regard it as canadian or russian when they seek to drive a military vessel through the NW Passage - they have to get permission from someone if they do
There was an article in USNI that noted that the over Canada route is probably the only economically viable one for shipping, due to straits restrictions for Russian routes 9specifically 7m and 13m depth restrictions for two specific straits). And even still, "economically viable" is a relative question.

Some of the similar issues are touched upon here (I vouch nothing for that blog on other than that post).

Arctic warming will probably help Russia more by making more petro deposits viable than by opening up shipping routes.
 

CdnDefWriter

New Member
SSNs in Canadian northern waters

The book 'Hunter Killers', by Ian Ballantyne, gives a good history of UK SSN passages through our northern waters.

Meanwhile, the following 2013 link [ Research Note: American SSNs in Canada’s Arctic Waters, 1960-1986 by Adam Lajeunesse | Canadian Military History ] gives a fairly decent picture of USN SSN operations / transits in Canadian northern waters.
"Research Note: American SSNs in Canada’s Arctic Waters, 1960-1986 by Adam Lajeunesse". Plus even shows routes for visual effect.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The book 'Hunter Killers', by Ian Ballantyne, gives a good history of UK SSN passages through our northern waters.

Meanwhile, the following 2013 link [ Research Note: American SSNs in Canada’s Arctic Waters, 1960-1986 by Adam Lajeunesse | Canadian Military History ] gives a fairly decent picture of USN SSN operations / transits in Canadian northern waters.
"Research Note: American SSNs in Canada’s Arctic Waters, 1960-1986 by Adam Lajeunesse". Plus even shows routes for visual effect.
The UK never had territorial claims on canadas NW passage on the continental shelf argument - and the canadians were quite happy to accept UK transit etc as there was a common good.

the current scenarios re the russians and the NW passage are completely different.

damn shame that successive canadian govts haven't listened to various norwegian "specialists" re whats been building up ever Putin got in to power.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
There was an article in USNI that noted that the over Canada route is probably the only economically viable one for shipping, due to straits restrictions for Russian routes 9specifically 7m and 13m depth restrictions for two specific straits). And even still, "economically viable" is a relative question.

Some of the similar issues are touched upon here (I vouch nothing for that blog on other than that post).

Arctic warming will probably help Russia more by making more petro deposits viable than by opening up shipping routes.
Before commercial shipping happens it is likely adventure cruise ships that will be using the NW passage first, hopefully being escorted by icebreakers. Stuff happens though and if it is serious stuff the SAR operation will be a disaster as Canada has minimal assets in the Arctic. Additional rescue assets would have to be flown up from the south. Neither Canada or the US have sufficient icebreaker resources in the Arctic. Ships stuck in ice will reduce the bottom line for ship owners.
 

Joe Black

Active Member
I have always wonder why Canada has never considered simply piggybacking on RAN's AWD and just order 3 ships, with ASC building the first ship while the Canadians learn how to build them and build ship 2 and 3 themselves. That would expedite things for them.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The RCN's last tribal class destroyer is being towed to Halifax for break-up. The RCN is an all-frigate navy now and considering some of the rhetoric coming out of Ottawa these days, the RCN's future looks pretty bleak. Turning the RCN from a blue water navy to a coastal defence operation will provide budget relief for junior's social and foreign aid handouts.

Former HMCS Algonquin soon to be towed to Nova Scotia to be broken up | Ottawa Citizen
While you guys are towing ships from West to East via the Panama Canal, the RAN is offering ex FFG Sydney and ex LSL Tobruk to the various state governments to be sunk as dive sights.
I realise there's a fair cast in preparing them for this but I'm pretty sure its not in the same league as the $39m to tow and scrap Protecteur.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
While you guys are towing ships from West to East via the Panama Canal, the RAN is offering ex FFG Sydney and ex LSL Tobruk to the various state governments to be sunk as dive sights.
I realise there's a fair cast in preparing them for this but I'm pretty sure its not in the same league as the $39m to tow and scrap Protecteur.
A couple of RCN ships were sunk recently for recreational divers off the BC coast, one of the tribals I believe. The $39m is for both the Protecteur and Algonquin. As both ships were based in BC, it would only be financially viable if they were sunk there for dive sites. BC's environmental lobby likely would have raised all sorts of $hit over another wreck site. Although ocean territory is a federal matter, votes in BC are important for any federal party. I would think the environmental preparation, towing to location, and sinking of these two ships would be much cheaper than towing and scrapping in Halifax.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I have always wonder why Canada has never considered simply piggybacking on RAN's AWD and just order 3 ships, with ASC building the first ship while the Canadians learn how to build them and build ship 2 and 3 themselves. That would expedite things for them.
The short answer is that idea would require actually ordering something. Successive govts are constantly re-evaluating procurements so they don't have to actually commit to a purchase. This is how our massive recapitalization of defence crisis was created. Australia's AWD would be a good starting point, especially if we were to directly replace the tribals but that is not the plan. The future combatant surface ship program is for a common hull (i.e. frigate) and they will have different kit configurations for various roles. It is too bad OZ, the UK, NZ, and Canada couldn't be on the same page for a joint frigate build. The first three may be get there with the Type 26. Frankly having Canada involved would likely be a burden.
 

rockitten

Member
It is too bad OZ, the UK, NZ, and Canada couldn't be on the same page for a joint frigate build. The first three may be get there with the Type 26. Frankly having Canada involved would likely be a burden.
I am kind of sad to see an once proud little navy ended up like this (another one is the RNZN). But those ships (or soon to be rust buckets) will need a replacement someday. What are the RCN planning/going to do about the high-end capabilities?
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
What are the RCN planning/going to do about the high-end capabilities?
The plan was for 15 new surface combatant ships to replace the 12 Halifax frigates and 4 Tribal class destroyers. These new surface combatant ships together with 8 AOPS (Arctic offshore patrol ships) have a budget of 26.5 billion Cdn (capital cost only). The first AOPS is being built by Irving now and the number ordered is 5 instead of 8. A sixth might be built if the budget allows it. The CSC ship design still has not been finalized but will be a modified MOTS frigate. Already there is talk the cost of these frigates is so high that the number will have to be reduced to 11 as junior has said the 26 billion budget will not change (that's likely a lie as he will probably reduce it).

To a certain extent our situation is similar to NZ. The general public thinks external threats are too far away and that our navy only needs to defend the Canadian coast while ignoring the fact that we and our friends need freedom of the seas to allow commerce and that we have treaty obligations. Unlike NZ, we share a border with a superpower ally. This is a positive from a security point of view but a negative in that it creates an atmosphere of neglect, "let the other guy carry the load". Hopefully the USA will be a little more assertive in asking Canada to do its fair share. They are facing budgetary pressures and I think the USA will start sending messages to address our pathetic defence situation.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
I am kind of sad to see an once proud little navy ended up like this (another one is the RNZN). But those ships (or soon to be rust buckets) will need a replacement someday. What are the RCN planning/going to do about the high-end capabilities?
Little? There was a time when Canada had a pretty damn big navy! .
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
It's little now but it used to be the 5th largest in the world during WWII I believe?
The RCN was the the third largest navy in the world by the end of WW2 but I am not sure if either Germany or Japan had remaining naval assets that would have displaced us from number 3. The RCN was largely composed of corvettes and frigates with a few destroyers and was responsible for western North Atlantic.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Apparently the US has the same debate with ice breakers that Canada has, should they be a Navy or coast guard acquision. In Canada, the debate has been settled, the Coast Guard has the heavy icebreaker and the RCN will operate the slush breakers (Arctic Offshore Patrol Ships, AOPS). However, although both countries agree on the need for heavy ice breakers, waffling on a date is common to both countries.
Should Coasties Or Navy Build New Icebreaker? « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary
 

Future Fleet

New Member
Apparently the US has the same debate with ice breakers that Canada has, should they be a Navy or coast guard acquision. In Canada, the debate has been settled, the Coast Guard has the heavy icebreaker and the RCN will operate the slush breakers (Arctic Offshore Patrol Ships, AOPS). However, although both countries agree on the need for heavy ice breakers, waffling on a date is common to both countries.
Should Coasties Or Navy Build New Icebreaker? « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary
Russia has 6 nuclear ice breakers and over 30 ocean going ice breakers. Of course Canada does not have the same needs as the same needs as the Russians but at least three Diefenbaker class ice breakers are probably needed to keep lanes open and a presence in the North. Keep ice breaking with the CCG where it belongs. If the Navy wants to cruise around up north they should be doing it right in an SSN.

Instead of the slush breakers, the Canadian Navy should have joined the USCG order for OPV and replace the Kingston class patrol ships. Slush breakers are compromising a lot (speed, endurance, etc) for little gain (slush breaking)
 

CB90

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Apparently the US has the same debate with ice breakers that Canada has, should they be a Navy or coast guard acquision. In Canada, the debate has been settled, the Coast Guard has the heavy icebreaker and the RCN will operate the slush breakers (Arctic Offshore Patrol Ships, AOPS). However, although both countries agree on the need for heavy ice breakers, waffling on a date is common to both countries.
Should Coasties Or Navy Build New Icebreaker? « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary
Sounds like a great job for the Coast Guard to me. :D

Only partially snarky. With USN manning, an icebreaker job would be an "oddball" job for someone to take. It could be viewed as a dead end assignment where misfit toys are sent.

With the USCG, I would think an icebreaker tour would be viewed as relatively prestigious (if not in a particularly nice location).

And it would serve the job better to ensure it gets high quality officers, regardless of which service takes it. I just think the USCG is likely to do a better job of it. Plus they already base up out of Alaska.
 
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