Submarine news

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StingrayOZ

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Soryu can fire sub harpoon which is a requirement for SEA1000.
There has been some talk of a future TLAM capability but I can't remember seeing any confirmation of that.
Can anyone add to that?
Australia's proposed subs won't be Soryu, but similar to Soryu replacement (but bigger).

I believe Tomahawks could be sub launched through Tubes (encapsulated?). Most subs have 6 tubes (American SSN's only have 4), so could launch Tomahawks from a reload batch of 30 (shared with torpedoes). Potentially. Not sure who launched Tomahawks from tubes anymore. Royal Navy?

Not sure if any will definitely include VLS tubes, probably not the 12 the US SSN's have these days. (Harpoon/Tomahawk)

Not sure if we have the imperative to launch 12 harpoons or 12 Tomahawks all at once (only launching 6 at a time through tubes). Obviously that isn't something Japan would probably put on their subs, we may want something like that on ours, but I wouldn't see it as a need at this stage (expense, risk, time etc).
 
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Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Australia's proposed subs won't be Soryu, but similar to Soryu replacement (but bigger).

I believe Tomahawks could be sub launched through Tubes (encapsulated?). Most subs have 6 tubes (American SSN's only have 4), so could launch Tomahawks from a reload batch of 30 (shared with torpedoes). Potentially. Not sure who launched Tomahawks from tubes anymore. Royal Navy?

Not sure if any will definitely include VLS tubes, probably not the 12 the US SSN's have these days. (Harpoon/Tomahawk)

Not sure if we have the imperative to launch 12 harpoons or 12 Tomahawks all at once (only launching 6 at a time through tubes). Obviously that isn't something Japan would probably put on their subs, we may want something like that on ours, but I wouldn't see it as a need at this stage (expense, risk, time etc).
Given the choice, I would prefer that RAN subs be kitted with VLS for Harpoon and/or Tomahawk launches. Any tube-launched ordnance would be at the expense of torpedoes, and I would rather the RAN able to have both in sufficient numbers.

Also, if the RAN needed to carry out some sort of land attack mission, rapid delivery of 12 (or 18) missiles via VLS and perhaps torpedoe tubes can permit a hefty strike.
 

gf0012-aust

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Australia's proposed subs won't be Soryu, but similar to Soryu replacement (but bigger).
there's nothing in the public domain

however, whats known is that ERM is looking at a body plug, the body plug is also an unknown as the drivetrain has not been defined. So the plug could be for batteries, AIP. or the SF habitat

everything is speculation as nothing has been or will be released for some time
 

rand0m

Member
Given the choice, I would prefer that RAN subs be kitted with VLS for Harpoon and/or Tomahawk launches. Any tube-launched ordnance would be at the expense of torpedoes, and I would rather the RAN able to have both in sufficient numbers.

Also, if the RAN needed to carry out some sort of land attack mission, rapid delivery of 12 (or 18) missiles via VLS and perhaps torpedoe tubes can permit a hefty strike.
Wouldn't VLS take up precious room that could be used for fuel/stores?
 

Volkodav

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Well a great deal of the blame can be placed directly to Codock. Success took over 11 years to build and was 4 times over budget, there was no money left and there was no way the govt was going to repeat the effort with another hull. That government owned facility was atrociously inefficient. The record with the Battles, the Anzacs, the Q conversions and the Darings, they all speak for themselves at both dockyards.
I have no doubt the French documentation contributed to Success' failure but they were by no means the major mess.
I had the misfortune to do refits both there and at Williamstown when they were government owned, late, half completed, poor workmanship. It took the crew all the way to the next refit to sort the mess. Mind you that's when engineers were trained and capable. They also had an excellent FMU Fleet Maintenance Unit, mostly based on Stalwart, to help them
The facility was government owned but privately operated and while far from perfect it was no as bad as made out. I used to believe they were shocking inefficient until having the pleasure of working with a number of outstanding individuals who were trained there who proved to be as good as the best I have worked with from anywhere else, including BIW, Govern or VT.

Like any yard their performance was due to a multitude of factors over and above the usually blamed poor management and union idiocy.. Major factors at Codock were related to workforce levels priorities, something I became very familiar with at ASC. The number and type of workers was micro managed and they were pulled off one job and put on another at the whim of the customer, the CoA. Submarine refits, maintenance and upgrades pretty much had priority over the same for skimmers, which in turn were prioritised over new construction. Jobs already started were slowed or suspended to provide resources for higher priority work, or even worse, when money was short and planned work deferred.

I used the word "priority" a lot and it could be determined "urgency" or "importance", with urgent/high priority things not necessarily being truly important. This meant projects like ASW upgrades and conversions of WWII frigates and destroyers had priority over new construction, hence the delays to the Darings and River class DEs, even though many of the converted /upgraded ships saw limited if any service.

Sadly there were also sacrosanct sections and capabilities that were always fully manned and funded, even when they had nothing to do. Then there were vital niche capabilities that were let whither and die before rebuilt over and over again.

Codock was a vastly more capable than Williamstown and no more difficult to fix. What's more it could have built every ship and submarine the RAN has commissioned since it the yard was closed. All that was needed was the same sort of reorganisation, including consolidation of unions to remove demarcation disputes, that saw such success at Williamstown and ASC, followed by a continuous build of surface combatants, submarines, amphibious and support ships. Codock was more than capable of building either Oberons or even better Barbels for the RAN.
 

StingrayOZ

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there's nothing in the public domain

however, whats known is that ERM is looking at a body plug, the body plug is also an unknown as the drivetrain has not been defined. So the plug could be for batteries, AIP. or the SF habitat

everything is speculation as nothing has been or will be released for some time
I should really signature my posts with speculation disclaimers. Doesn't Soryu already has a AIP area (well for the current stirling AIP solution)? I would assume engines would be a likely area to address, given soryu has less engine than Collins, U214, Shortreality Dreamacuda?

I certainly don't see the availability of VLS on some designs as a key point in choosing. I would assume the Americans and the Japanese could come up something.

Given the choice, I would prefer that RAN subs be kitted with VLS for Harpoon and/or Tomahawk launches. Any tube-launched ordnance would be at the expense of torpedoes, and I would rather the RAN able to have both in sufficient numbers.
30 is a reasonable mix of both, I don't believe with modern torpedoes we usually have to fire off a salvo of 6 just to hit one target, like everything things are much more efficient now. So the ability to carry 30 odd tomahawks or harpoons or torpedos would seem to be ok. If we were to get VLS I would think 4-8 would be more the number we would be looking at. HDW VLS tubes I believe can be substituted for Special forces, mines, autonomous vehicles, or 24 tons of fuel.
SEA 1000 SUBMARINE TACTICAL LAND STRIKE | Australian Defence News & Articles | Asia Pacific Defence Reporter

Looks like the RN doesn't see the value in it for her boats at this stage. I would be surprised if we fall over ourselves to include it. The US has SSGN's, the ability to launch 157 tomahawks in ~4 minutes from a single SSGN. Of all the capabilities we can focus on, I don't think the ability of only launching ~6 Tomahawks at a time is a huge issue. However, it would probably piss off China, so there is that.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
I believe Tomahawks could be sub launched through Tubes (encapsulated?). Most subs have 6 tubes (American SSN's only have 4), so could launch Tomahawks from a reload batch of 30 (shared with torpedoes). Potentially. Not sure who launched Tomahawks from tubes anymore. Royal Navy?
The RN & the USN's Seawolf SSNs have tube-launched Tomahawks - & Seawolf has eight torpedo tubes, with up to 50 reloads.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
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Wouldn't VLS take up precious room that could be used for fuel/stores?
they don't have to use VLS necessarily either - quite a few developments have occurred with swimmers and floaters

TLAMS for all intents and purposes are "swimmers"
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
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What I would love to see is the external conformal weapons stowage put forward by EB years ago. Basically encapsulated missiles etc. are carried in and fired from tubes lying flush with the casing, raised fired then retracted as required.
 

gf0012-aust

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What I would love to see is the external conformal weapons stowage put forward by EB years ago. Basically encapsulated missiles etc. are carried in and fired from tubes lying flush with the casing, raised fired then retracted as required.

there was some very sexy tech proposed by EB and NGC for the Virginias as a major upgrade.

Conformal launchers and "real" conformal arrays...
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
There is a story on Naval Today about a visit by 8 Japanese delegates from MHI to Civmecs Henderson facility. Are Civmec a serious contender? Or is ASC the only Australian based contender.

Sorry attempted a link but it wouldn't go through.
 
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Volkodav

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There is a story on Naval Today about a visit by 8 Japanese delegates from MHI to Civmecs Henderson facility. Are Civmec a serious contender? Or is ASC the only Australian based contender.

Sorry attempted a link but it wouldn't go through.
They would be in the running for the construction of hull sections assembly and integration is so far beyond their experience and expertise there is no way, except in the dreams of the most delusional of the WA mafia, that they could build entire boats.
 

warmonger

New Member
Arctic Circle (March 10, 2016) USS Hartford (SSN 768) surfaces in the arctic circle

Arctic Circle (March 10, 2016) - USS Hartford (SSN 768) surfaces in the arctic circle.
Unclassified Video

youtube.com/watch?v=3HIJpeFGzng
 

Milne Bay

Active Member
They would be in the running for the construction of hull sections assembly and integration is so far beyond their experience and expertise there is no way, except in the dreams of the most delusional of the WA mafia, that they could build entire boats.
I don't think that they have ever considered the prospect of building entire boats. However they have demonstrated the ability to build hull sections. Further, they seem to have ambitions to be a part of the future builds for other RAN assets. To this end they have taken over the Forgacs Tomago Dockyard in Newcastle.
MB
 

ASSAIL

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I don't think that they have ever considered the prospect of building entire boats. However they have demonstrated the ability to build hull sections. Further, they seem to have ambitions to be a part of the future builds for other RAN assets. To this end they have taken over the Forgacs Cairncross Dockyard in Newcastle.
MB
I read that but Cairncross dock is in Brisbane, it was the biggest in Oz before GI and I don't think they bought Carrington from Forgacs, just the Brisbane dock. Not sure about the Newcastle facilities though
 

Milne Bay

Active Member
I read that but Cairncross dock is in Brisbane, it was the biggest in Oz before GI and I don't think they bought Carrington from Forgacs, just the Brisbane dock. Not sure about the Newcastle facilities though
Actually, I was wrong - they bought the Forgacs site at Tomago in Newcastle.
I'll amend my first post
MB
 

ngatimozart

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A nuclear navy requires an industrial infrastructure that sadly Canada doesn't have.
Gidday mate and welcome aboard. One thing though could you please read the rules because one liners aren't welcome. It upsets the Moderators and they can be grumpy if they haven't been fed and sometimes we forget :D enjoy your time here. You are right in that a country does need a nuclear industry to support a nuclear navy.
 
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