Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Sorry Volkadov - you seem to have forgotten that in September 2012 the Australian people were promised by the then Government that the AWD program would be delivered within Budget whilst being stretched out to level a manpower peak (a reason I supported).
Just 12 months later David was appointed DefMIN and was told that was untrue - that the AWD program now exceeded its planned budget by at least $300M. Within another year it was $600M+ and now even ASC admits its $900M.
The Seasprite program was lambasted for wasting much the same amount but somehow ASC must remain immune from any criticism.
Was there a coverup leading to the 2103 election as I refuse to believe that the $300M overrun was not know prior to 7th September 2013?
As a disclosure I worked for BAE and its predecessors for 26 years and if the same slack cost control and schedule overrun had occurred there we would have been pilloried by all and sundry. I remember a number of times when our subcontractors let us down but the Commonwealth response was subcontractor performance is the Prime's responsibility - I have never heard this about ASC as they always like to blame others.
Please remember that David Johnson did give due credit to ASC for its great improvement in Collins maintenance following the Coles report.
What planet are you on?

"ASC must remain immune", "ASC like to blame others", "Cover up leading to the 2013 election". Total utter, revisionist BS, ASC is government owned and regularly gagged for political reasons, senior managers who do not tow the line end up looking for a new job very quickly.

The rebaselining wasn't a cover up, it was a cost cutting measure that involved making a very large number of engineers, technical officers and technicians redundant as engineering, supply chain, etc. were cut to the bone and amalgamated with submarines. At the same time many shipbuilding and CoA functions were handed to Raytheon in Gillards failed attempt to achieve a budget surplus. The very people tasked with identifying and fixing the issues with Navantias design data and supply chain, as well as those fixing the blocks BAE f'd up beyond all recognition (the quality was so bad that senior BIW staff suggested it may have been deliberate sabotage, i.e. objects jammed into supposedly tested and certified pipe segments, reworked welds so bad that entire plates and frames had to be replaced) were cut back meaning inevitable schedule slips and cost overruns.

The whole time ASC was blamed and publicly caned for a faulty design they didn't select, an incompetent block subcontractor they didn't want but were forced to take on and an alliance partner who knew nothing about shipbuilding but was empire building their way to prime. The whole time Johnston wouldn't talk to government owned ASC but was being back grounded over expensive dinners and trips by Raytheon and BAE, while working with the WA government to kill major ship and submarine construction in Australia while moving most sustainment and modification work to Henderson.

BAEs performance was so bad that apart from being nursed and spoon fed by ASC welding, marine survey, dimensional experts, Lloyds and ABS were also contracted specifically to bring them up to standard. Part of the problem was Tenix lost many of their best people when Howard awarded AWD to ASC and they followed the work. Many of the senior ASC managers you and many others criticise are former Tenix personnel from the ANZAC project who were head hunted by ASC, while many others came over after BAE bought Williamstown and gutted the place, replacing competent people with their own lackies. In the end the Australian operation was such an embarrassment, as well as a threat to gaining future contracts, that the UK dispatched some of their best people to fix things, starting with sacking most of the deceitful and incompetent senior managers who screwed up the blocks for ship one and lost the contract for ship two.

I know you BAE types love bagging ASC "the prime is always to blame, blah blah blah" but the truth of the matter is BAEs performance and behavior was beyond incompetent, it was criminal. Quality and schedule was so bad it proved to have less impact on cost and schedule bringing the work back in house than leaving BAE to rework it. Some blocks actually proved so bad that had the full scope of the amount of rework required been realised, it would have been quicker and cheaper to leave the blocks in Williamstown and build new ones elsewhere. I never actually visited Williamstown, BAE panicked when they found out we wanted to come over and inspect their work. In the end the block subcontracts manager asked us to hold off because the thought of having ex-submarines test and certification people there was too frightening and intimidating for them.

Considering that the hulls were fabricated in Spain, below cost and ahead of schedule, how is it Adelaide and Canberra were both late and riddled with defects if BAE is so perfect and faultless? I would love it if BAE got half the bad press and political pressure ASC has had to put up with, it might give you guys a better perception of reality.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I saw this nice little article this morning regarding the J option. Seems its definitely not a certainty. Unless he is being purposely vague hmmm food for thought haha

Dennis Richardson says Japanese submarine bid is not the frontrunner | afr.com
I think the article is simply stating the obvious, the choice will be made on capability and only when that's demonstrated.
Richardson is playing a strait bat, the shows not over till the fat lady sings blah, blah.
All this is for public consumption but there are some irrevocable facts about each option which insiders are aware of and they point to a successful Japanese bid.
It would be an enormous surprise if the non J options got the nod because that would only occur through political intervention
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
I saw this nice little article this morning regarding the J option. Seems its definitely not a certainty. Unless he is being purposely vague hmmm food for thought haha

Dennis Richardson says Japanese submarine bid is not the frontrunner | afr.com
Richardson is acting exactly the way he should, as a thoroughly professional Defence Secretary. As he showed last week in the Senate hearings. He is not going to comment on individual bidders in a CEP. He may have a proferred option but he is definitely not going to tell anyone. Officially all bidders are on equal footing at this stage and it will stay that way until an announcement of the winner is made.
Richardson was very careful last week about what he said concerning any bidders in ongoing CEPs.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I saw this nice little article this morning regarding the J option. Seems its definitely not a certainty. Unless he is being purposely vague hmmm food for thought haha

Dennis Richardson says Japanese submarine bid is not the frontrunner | afr.com
As someone who has actually had the Probity Managers hat on for some acqusition evaluations, I can tell you that DR is doing and saying exactly what should be happening

comments by media and vested interests are a meaningless contribution to the actual assessment work - and if any one of the primes managed to see someone of influence during this process the others could actually challenge the whole process and bring it to a halt - and that would delay it by some months and do the offending party no favours for adding extra costs through a delay in the overall process

all the talking heads in the world trotted out by and within the australian media are literally pi$$ing into the wind if they are seeking to infuence the evaluators - and that includes pollies in the Reps and Senate who think that their parliamentary positions give them weight

all these things have to be able to survive the forensics that could be triggered by a legal challenge by a disgruntled vendor - so no-one will be massaging the process to get a preferred outcome
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
From what I've been hearing the selection is a lot closer than I personally expected. The Japanese appear to have the technical and capability lead through offering a real world design evolved from an actual, by all accounts, successful, in service class. The Germans have proven their skill in modifying designs to fit the customers wants and needs as well as (if you discount the Greek shenanigans) having much greater success transferring technology and supporting local builds, in service support and subsequent upgrades.

The French on the other hand have a lot of minuses verses the pluses the other two have. They are offering a nuc without a kettle, apparently not offering LI batteries, will have diabolical ITAR issues, cannot be trusted to respect our, or other contractors IP and have an absolutely shocking record on cost and schedule, combined with a very liberal interpretation of objectives, obligations and milestones, let alone certification. The only edge I can see them having is the number of senior ex RAN and industry people I am seeing pop up on their payroll, obviously a lot of familiar faces being brought in for networking and lobbying. Why win on merit when you can wine dine, lobby and baffle the decision makers.

At this point I would hope we will see option j get up with option G being the second choice and the French left out in the cold (that should happen based on Tigre, MRH90 and MU90 alone), but based on past experience nothing would surprise me. Remember the RAN desperately wanted the evolved design for AWD with the Flight II Burke as a fall back, but due to Kinard even evolved Darings and F-124s were out of the running leaving us with the F-100. Army wanted UH60 Mikes and clearly an FMS buy of AH-64s or AH-1 Whiskies would have been the way to go. Just thank god we didn't end up waiting for A400s instead of buying C-17s.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
At this point I would hope we will see option j get up with option G being the second choice and the French left out in the cold (that should happen based on Tigre, MRH90 and MU90 alone), but based on past experience nothing would surprise me.
Mayhap I have been hit in the head too many times, but I do not recall significant issues with getting the MU90 into service. From what I remember, it was not quite as far along in the development cycle as advertised, and that it was (is?) quite expensive due to the propulsion system to counter threats posed by certain classes of Soviet SSN's. Perhaps I am forgetting something?

IIRC the USN had a similar sort of torpedoe cost epiphany with the Mk 46 LWT replacement, the Mk 50. Due to changes in the threat matrix, the Mk 50 was rapidly replaced by the Mk 54 which is basically the Mk 50 seeker package on a Mk 46 body.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Mayhap I have been hit in the head too many times, but I do not recall significant issues with getting the MU90 into service. From what I remember, it was not quite as far along in the development cycle as advertised, and that it was (is?) quite expensive due to the propulsion system to counter threats posed by certain classes of Soviet SSN's. Perhaps I am forgetting something?

IIRC the USN had a similar sort of torpedoe cost epiphany with the Mk 46 LWT replacement, the Mk 50. Due to changes in the threat matrix, the Mk 50 was rapidly replaced by the Mk 54 which is basically the Mk 50 seeker package on a Mk 46 body.
It was sold as an in service MOTS solution, ready to be integrated into our surface, maritime helicopter and Orion fleets with limited effort, expense and minimal risk. It turned out to be very developmental and nowhere near service ready, in fact Australia had to take over certification just to get it into service on our skimmers. It ended up being so late that it was no longer worth the effort of integrating it on the Seahawk and Orion, as their replacements would be in service not long after it achieved FOC. It was yet another example of the Euro option being nowhere near as mature as advertised.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
It was yet another example of the Euro option being nowhere near as mature as advertised.
have to say that my experiences as a contractor with french gear have been less than stellar. they behave like IBM in the 80's, strong on pitch, poor on execution and shallow on promises to keep.

whenever they say that they have capability available then there's a strong need to make sure you establish what "available" means - because it can mean anything from a beer coaster idea to a prelim design - it rarely (and never in my experience) means fully formed. it never means in service MOTS to the dev cycle you think you paid for.

you pay in time, integration expenses, development cycles where you often end up as the guinea pig customer. meanwhile they're flogging it off to other countries as a fully formed capability and expect you to help convince potential other customers....

Not having a crack at french gear as I think they do some very speccy stuff, but if you have to spend most of your time checking minutia rather than checking actual platform capability meets what you asked for, then you need to revise your desire to be involved.

Never had the same problem with the germans, dutch or danes

/personal experiences off
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
It was sold as an in service MOTS solution, ready to be integrated into our surface, maritime helicopter and Orion fleets with limited effort, expense and minimal risk. It turned out to be very developmental and nowhere near service ready, in fact Australia had to take over certification just to get it into service on our skimmers. It ended up being so late that it was no longer worth the effort of integrating it on the Seahawk and Orion, as their replacements would be in service not long after it achieved FOC. It was yet another example of the Euro option being nowhere near as mature as advertised.
Am I correct in assuming the MU90 was a more mature product when ordered as compared to Canada's CH148 Cyclone (paper concept H-92)? Sikorsky has screwed up just much as NH. I guess NH misrepresented their product to Australia whereas Canada was too incompetent to realize there was no product.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Am I correct in assuming the MU90 was a more mature product when ordered as compared to Canada's CH148 Cyclone (paper concept H-92)? Sikorsky has screwed up just much as NH. I guess NH misrepresented their product to Australia whereas Canada was too incompetent to realize there was no product.
God no.

Ordered in 2004 the CH-148 is expected to be introduced fully in 2016, The MU90 ordered in 1998 was not fully introduced until 2013, 12 years vs 15 years.

The CH-148 is based off of an existing flying aircraft, The MU90 was based off of blue prints.
 

the road runner

Active Member
Am I correct in assuming the MU90 was a more mature product when ordered as compared to Canada's CH148 Cyclone (paper concept H-92)? Sikorsky has screwed up just much as NH. I guess NH misrepresented their product to Australia whereas Canada was too incompetent to realize there was no product.
I think your confusing the MU90 ( European Lightweight Torpedo ) with the NH90 European helicopter. I assume you are not comparing the CH148 helicopter with the MU90 lightweight Torpedo ? MU90 is a consortium of a French and Italian company named "Eurotorp"

Or am i reading this wrong
 

t68

Well-Known Member
have to say that my experiences as a contractor with french gear have been less than stellar. they behave like IBM in the 80's, strong on pitch, poor on execution and shallow on promises to keep.

whenever they say that they have capability available then there's a strong need to make sure you establish what "available" means - because it can mean anything from a beer coaster idea to a prelim design - it rarely (and never in my experience) means fully formed. it never means in service MOTS to the dev cycle you think you paid for.

you pay in time, integration expenses, development cycles where you often end up as the guinea pig customer. meanwhile they're flogging it off to other countries as a fully formed capability and expect you to help convince potential other customers....

Not having a crack at french gear as I think they do some very speccy stuff, but if you have to spend most of your time checking minutia rather than checking actual platform capability meets what you asked for, then you need to revise your desire to be involved.

Never had the same problem with the germans, dutch or danes

/personal experiences off
Caveat emptor, seems like we need to put more penalty clauses in the contracts when dealing with the French. But I suppose it's a bit hard when they already have the cash, might be a case of with holding contract money till FOC
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Caveat emptor, seems like we need to put more penalty clauses in the contracts when dealing with the French. But I suppose it's a bit hard when they already have the cash, might be a case of with holding contract money till FOC
Not an uncommon practice in business, Customers pay me as I reach a certain point on the restoration, A same scenario could be implemented with any military gear with appropriate payments made as each requirement is met in full (reduced payments for reduced capability).
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I think your confusing the MU90 ( European Lightweight Torpedo ) with the NH90 European helicopter. I assume you are not comparing the CH148 helicopter with the MU90 lightweight Torpedo ? MU90 is a consortium of a French and Italian company named "Eurotorp"

Or am i reading this wrong
You are correct, my mistake. I thought the MU90 was a variant of the NH90.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
RAN has both MU90 and Mk54(we ordered 200 in 2011?) and Mk48 Heavy weights (for the subs). We seemed to have all bets covered.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
RAN has both MU90 and Mk54(we ordered 200 in 2011?) and Mk48 Heavy weights (for the subs). We seemed to have all bets covered.
It's not so much all bet's covered, having the MU90 and Mk54 is like having the Mk48 and the Spearfish in service at the same time, Unless either of t he LWT's is superior then the other in regards to ship launched vs air launched there is no benefit (bet's covered) in having both.

Thinking about it, Even though we have managed to get them in order long term would it be cheaper to keep both as they are or to go to a single type? Purely in acquisition term's the Mk54 is far more cheaper then the MU90. Add in similarities (at least some what in the coding to my knowledge) with the Mk48 and it is a fairly simple choice. Far better choice the ships only carrying one family of LWT's rather then two.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
It's not so much all bet's covered, having the MU90 and Mk54 is like having the Mk48 and the Spearfish in service at the same time, Unless either of t he LWT's is superior then the other in regards to ship launched vs air launched there is no benefit (bet's covered) in having both.

Thinking about it, Even though we have managed to get them in order long term would it be cheaper to keep both as they are or to go to a single type? Purely in acquisition term's the Mk54 is far more cheaper then the MU90. Add in similarities (at least some what in the coding to my knowledge) with the Mk48 and it is a fairly simple choice. Far better choice the ships only carrying one family of LWT's rather then two.
I think the MU90's are ship launched and the Mk54 are air launched. Ideally we would use one. But there have been a number of projects that have had issues that were going to launch these. There was a reason we initially went with the Mu90's because we weren't happy with the american stuff and thought we could get something more capable.

Obviously in the strategic environment we are now in, we can't afford to not have things operational (for decades?).

The RAN must have some pretty full warehouses. From all the stuff pulled off ships or purchased and then not used, not integrated or purchased until something could be integrated. Guns, torpedoes, radars, sonars, missiles etc. If we ever did want to build a corvette, there is a lot of stuff sitting there. Not sure it can all be intergrated.
 
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