Australian Army Discussions and Updates

[ADMk2]

Goverment at the time wanted a MOTS solution but If I remember correctly from the ANAO report was that at the time the US were introducing S70M as at that time it was still in devolpment variant of the Blackhawk family which one would have thought that even though it was still an in devolpment it really was just an evolution of the current in service airframe, we're as the NH90 had no pedigree to begin with.

Unfortunatly politics got involved what should have been a straight forward program. If the wanted enhanced capabilty should have gone Merlin EH101

The choice basically came down to promised in-support costs. Airbus 'somehow' (cough, deliberate under-bidding, cough) managed to grossly under-estimate both the operational costs and development maturity of their helicopter platforms and we were stupid enough to believe them not once, but twice. Fortunately even we managed to wise up a third time and not get bitten again.

Un-funnily enough the MH-60R is like to reach operational service well ahead of either Tiger or MRH-90 despite being ordered 5 years later...

 

[vonnoobie]

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/rotorhub/singapore-airshow-airbus-prioritises-aussie-tiger-/

In possibly the least surprising news to come out of the Singapore Air Show, Airbus announces improving performance of the Aussie Tigers is a top priority. Amazing how that happened just after the proposal was floated to replace the type with AH1's.

To be expected, They can wear the bad press of a small nation cutting the Tigers or even a more sieable nation cutting orders as it can all be put down to financial reasons but if Australia which is a sizeable nation in the grand scheme of things was to cut the Tiger entirely and actually put up the cash to repalce it then it would heap a massive amount of bad press onto the Tiger making any future exports to other nations that much more challanging.

Having already lost out in India and South Korea if Australia pulls out then I dare to say that they would have little to no chance of any further exports outside of Europe.

 

[gf0012-aust]

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/rotorhub/singapore-airshow-airbus-prioritises-aussie-tiger-/

In possibly the least surprising news to come out of the Singapore Air Show, Airbus announces improving performance of the Aussie Tigers is a top priority. Amazing how that happened just after the proposal was floated to replace the type with AH1's.

amazing how it happens when a DWP is flagged for early release - and a whole pile of other platforms are up for delivery

breathless enthusiasm to fix platforms should happen during the delivery of the artifact - not just when the risk can impact on other things.....

/cynicism off

 

[Stampede]

wants vs needs.....again.
need a new bike. = View attachment 6635






wants =View attachment 6636

Nice bike. Call it a need!
and good luck with that one.
I'm no athlete, but riding is one of lifes great pleasures.
Anyway back to the thread!
Stampede

 

[PatH]

DWP: Tigers

I was Scrolling through the DWP, and noticed at the bottom of page 98 this:

"The Government will replace the 22 Tiger Armed Reconnaissance helicopters with a new armed reconnaissance capability from the mid-2020s."

Is this the end for the Tigers? And if so will we sell them off to another nation? NZ?

 

[Milne Bay]

I was Scrolling through the DWP, and noticed at the bottom of page 98 this:

"The Government will replace the 22 Tiger Armed Reconnaissance helicopters with a new armed reconnaissance capability from the mid-2020s."

Is this the end for the Tigers? And if so will we sell them off to another nation? NZ?

That is ten years away.
Other good news - army will finally have long range rocket artillery.
About time.
MB

 

[t68]

Is this the end for the Tigers? And if so will we sell them off to another nation? NZ?

Hopefully an existing user will take them on, bet Airbus is not happy. So an evaluation over the next couple of years then order around 2018-19 for delivery 2022/3

Looks like the Viper consortium read the tea leaves right!

 

[Boagrius]

I was Scrolling through the DWP, and noticed at the bottom of page 98 this:

"The Government will replace the 22 Tiger Armed Reconnaissance helicopters with a new armed reconnaissance capability from the mid-2020s."

Is this the end for the Tigers? And if so will we sell them off to another nation? NZ?

Certainly seems like they are getting the flick. Makes me wonder whether the Apache/drone combo might get a run after all. That said I was under the impression that Apache's successor was tentatively slated for early 2030s which could make for awkward timing. I for one was pretty happy with this along with the planned rocket artillery and medium range SAM acquisitions, though. Probably long overdue capabilities really.

 

[vonnoobie]

I dont see NZ taking them, That actually involves investing in acquiring new capabilities beyond the existing when its hard enough to get the funds to keep the current capabilities.

Most likely an existing customer to be used as a massive parts pool.

 

[ngatimozart]

I dont see NZ taking them, That actually involves investing in acquiring new capabilities beyond the existing when its hard enough to get the funds to keep the current capabilities.

Most likely an existing customer to be used as a massive parts pool.

That goes along with the final paragraph in the section on NZ which basically states that NZG makes its own decisions etc., based on its national interests and that its military capabilities will not always reflect Australias. Since the two govts have been aware of what's in each others DWP, makes me wonder what's for the chop in our one. Certainly won't be an increase in funding, or if there is, it will be minuscule.

Actually I don't think we'd want the Tigers. They'll be stuffed by the time they are removed from Australian service because there will be no incentive to undertake anything other than routine and preventative maintenance now. If we go down the ARH track, which I hope we do, methinks the AH-1Z would be the far better option for us. I also think it would be for the ADF as well rather than the Apache because it is already marinised.

 

[ADMk2]

That is ten years away.
Other good news - army will finally have long range rocket artillery.
About time.
MB

Takes a while to introduce a while new capability... 3 years or so just to build a platform and deliver it. The rest of the capability takes more. I suspect we'll see this kick off rather soon. I wouldn't waste one more cent on upgrading / investing in the Tigers if I were Government.

Maintain them and use them as the expensive trainers they really are until a real capability comes along...

 

[Volkodav]

Hopefully an existing user will take them on, bet Airbus is not happy. So an evaluation over the next couple of years then order around 2018-19 for delivery 2022/3

Looks like the Viper consortium read the tea leaves right!

More like BAEs backdoor access to def is still open they are getting heads ups as well as being able to brief advisors through informal channels. Hope the AH-64E is at least looked at.

I wonder if the Raider could be a possibility for the new light helicopters being discussed.

 

[Boagrius]

Didn't spot anything about an expansion of the Abrams fleet, which I found surprising. I know there was a brief mention of upgrades for them though, so I suppose this is still not out of the question. I am guessing we will at least be looking at getting the existing fleet to M1A3 standard at some point (sans DU plates perhaps)..?

 

[StingrayOZ]

Didn't spot anything about an expansion of the Abrams fleet, which I found surprising. I know there was a brief mention of upgrades for them though, so I suppose this is still not out of the question. I am guessing we will at least be looking at getting the existing fleet to M1A3 standard at some point (sans DU plates perhaps)..?

The upgrade is up to a billion dollars. Maybe some new ones with that.

 

[Cadredave]

More like BAEs backdoor access to def is still open they are getting heads ups as well as being able to brief advisors through informal channels. Hope the AH-64E is at least looked at.

I wonder if the Raider could be a possibility for the new light helicopters being discussed.

Could the Latest MH-6/AH-6 Little birds be an option to support SOF? ie a tie in with the 160th SOAR Regt in the USA.

 

[the road runner]

I wouldn't waste one more cent on upgrading / investing in the Tigers if I were Government.

Maintain them and use them as the expensive trainers they really are until a real capability comes along...

Im with you AD i recall a few years back ,some of the def pros calling for a cancellation of the Tiger.One things for sure... Eurocopter PR team will be in full swing trying to show its fixing what should have been fixed along time ago.

It seems when we do purchase a current platform used by the USA via FMS how well we are supported. Exchange of ADF person's being absorbed into US training systems ,so that when our platform is delivered we hit the ground running!

 

[Raven22]

Didn't spot anything about an expansion of the Abrams fleet, which I found surprising. I know there was a brief mention of upgrades for them though, so I suppose this is still not out of the question. I am guessing we will at least be looking at getting the existing fleet to M1A3 standard at some point (sans DU plates perhaps)..?

It's important to understand that the M1 upgrade is an upgrade of the capability, not just of the platform.

So, if it's determined that the future tanks force needs extra tanks to meet the capability requirement, then extra tanks can be bought as part of Land 907 Phase 2.

 

[Boagrius]

It's important to understand that the M1 upgrade is an upgrade of the capability, not just of the platform.

So, if it's determined that the future tanks force needs extra tanks to meet the capability requirement, then extra tanks can be bought as part of Land 907 Phase 2.

Ah of course. Thanks for filling me in there. In that case I will be very interested to see what comes of both this and LAND 400... could be a very capable fleet of vehicles indeed.

 

[Volkodav]

The upgrade is up to a billion dollars. Maybe some new ones with that.

Even assuming A$5m per tank plus supply chain, a billion is sufficient for 100 tanks. The upgrade budget appears sufficient to not only upgrade the existing fleet but to potentially replace it with more than twice as many new vehicles of the latest (or even next major version) configuration. So not only could this cover the extra squadron required, it could also provide extra vehicles to finally provide the long overdue armoured engineering capability and possibly even the facility to increase troop / squadron sizes , or an additional deployable squadron attached to the school of armour to beef up any of the ACRs as required. Maybe some CRVs could be traded for more tank troops or squadrons, i.e. the ACR has two tank, one CRV and one IFV Sqn.

 

[RubiconNZ]

So can we assume SPH is done and dusted, with the Long Range Artillery superseding that capability? (If it does.)