New Zealand Army

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Raven, is there way to access stats regarding military offences?
I would be interested in seeing a yearly comarison of UD, s since the introduction of the F88 and variants, there were soooo many UD, s when it was introduced. Be interesting to see how they have dropped since the intoduction, and then compare the UD rate to conventional weapons, pre F88. I know in my service, I never UD, ed and only ever had one digger in my section UD, my best mate, who I charged,( unforgivable offence in my books) then after the F88 was introduced, there was an avalanche of UD, s , in my opinion, caused by bad weapon handling, and a bad trigger guard (designed to be fired when wearing mittens) makingnit impossible for the average man to keep his finger outside the trigger guard.
One thing I recall from the reserves and I don't know if it applied to the regs is as the F88 was being introduced there was an abundance of blank rounds available and we never did any weapon handling with unloaded weapons (even had blanks loaded for major parades and practices for them). Our weapons were loaded most of the time, If you stuffed up everyone knew.

On the other hand once we got Steyrs the early 90s defence cuts were well in place and we were issued with few, if any blanks. I recall only one exercise when I was issued them for my personal weapon and then it was only ten rounds, followed by another five once I expended them in our one and only contact.. Every other exercise, weekend, or training activity my personal weapon was just dead weight, the only time anything was fired through it was annual qualification shoots.

So in my first three years 90/1-93/4 my (and everyone elses) rifle was always loaded, From then on, especially my last three years 96-98/9 my rifle was only loaded with anything on the actual mound under the direction of multiple safety officers and that was only once a year. From personal observation soldiers were much more careful around weapons that were likely to go off than unloaded training props, they would not only maintain their own disciple but monitor their mates and step in if they saw bad practice (i.e. fatigue related errors), as there were real and obvious consequences when you had even a blank round in the chamber. On the other hand when your personal weapon is always unloaded, it can never go off no matter what you do wrong, to the point I even saw one bored solider absently cycling his weapon before a WO2 stepped in (cant recall if it was a 49 RQR Ready Reservist or a 9Bde reservist, we exercised with both).

Long story short is people become complacent when they believe there is no danger, especially if there are regularly no consequences for poor practice / behaviour.
 

kiwi in exile

Active Member
Australia has solved this problem by selecting the Elcan SpectreDR as the new daysight. The SpectreDR is both a 4x and 1x sight in one - it simply has a throw lever to switch between the two. So you can have the 4x selected most of the time, but if you approach close terrain simply throw the lever to switch to 1x.

The SpectreDR will replace all day sights currently in use aside from scopes for sniper rifles - it will equip all F88s (it will be delivered with new EF88s and replace the old 1.5x sight on legacy F88SA2s), all F89s, and (in a 7.62mm version) all Mag58s. Not only this excellent from a capability POV, as it is an excellent sight, it will save massive amounts of time and money as you only have to support/maintain a single sight, and you only have to train soldiers on a single sight. The only problem is the sight is quite heavy (600g from memory) and VERY expensive.
Im aware of the Elcan SpectreDR, but this is the first i have heard about the ADF getting them as standard optic. Please provide a link. From what I have seen, ADF EF88s will be equiped with a range of trijicon sights (1.5 x for tier 3 pers, 4 x with RMR for infantry).
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Im aware of the Elcan SpectreDR, but this is the first i have heard about the ADF getting them as standard optic. Please provide a link. From what I have seen, ADF EF88s will be equiped with a range of trijicon sights (1.5 x for tier 3 pers, 4 x with RMR for infantry).
I don't think I can link to anything. The Army finalised the small arms modernisation plan late last year, and it was signed off by the chief at the end on November. The plan talks about how all small arms, heavy weapons, ancillaries etc will be modernised. The issue of the new daysight was just one very small part.

The main effort of the plan is rationalisation. Thanks to rapid purchases for ops etc over the last decade, there are lots and lots of boutique quantities of equipment in many configurations in service, which is expensive to sustain and train. The new plan will rationalise everything so essentially there will be only one type of equipment in every category, and they will all be in a like configuration. Day sights are a good example - there are currently something like seven different day sights in service, all of which will be replaced by a single sight.

The plan is very comprehensive and there are lots of very interesting things in there. It is almost entirely positive, but there are a few decisions that will be controversial, and a few that are perhaps a bit too ambitious. It is basically all thanks to the efforts of a very energetic LTCOL who is the SO1 of combat development. Most of the new soldier equipment coming into service (weapons, uniforms, helmets, body armour etc) are thanks to his ability to be smarter than everyone else on the room, and convince people to sign off his plans because no one can fault the logic behind them.

I imagine after the Christmas stand down you will start seeing articles in the army rag etc with some details.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
One thing I recall from the reserves and I don't know if it applied to the regs is as the F88 was being introduced there was an abundance of blank rounds available and we never did any weapon handling with unloaded weapons (even had blanks loaded for major parades and practices for them). Our weapons were loaded most of the time, If you stuffed up everyone knew.

On the other hand once we got Steyrs the early 90s defence cuts were well in place and we were issued with few, if any blanks. I recall only one exercise when I was issued them for my personal weapon and then it was only ten rounds, followed by another five once I expended them in our one and only contact.. Every other exercise, weekend, or training activity my personal weapon was just dead weight, the only time anything was fired through it was annual qualification shoots.

So in my first three years 90/1-93/4 my (and everyone elses) rifle was always loaded, From then on, especially my last three years 96-98/9 my rifle was only loaded with anything on the actual mound under the direction of multiple safety officers and that was only once a year. From personal observation soldiers were much more careful around weapons that were likely to go off than unloaded training props, they would not only maintain their own disciple but monitor their mates and step in if they saw bad practice (i.e. fatigue related errors), as there were real and obvious consequences when you had even a blank round in the chamber. On the other hand when your personal weapon is always unloaded, it can never go off no matter what you do wrong, to the point I even saw one bored solider absently cycling his weapon before a WO2 stepped in (cant recall if it was a 49 RQR Ready Reservist or a 9Bde reservist, we exercised with both).

Long story short is people become complacent when they believe there is no danger, especially if there are regularly no consequences for poor practice / behaviour.
No, don, t think the lack of rounds was the cause, I was in the ARA from 1985, Hawke to 1995 Keating years, the worst I saw came under the Grim Reaper....Keating, we rarley had blanks, did exercises where I remember yelling out "buckets of bullets" to simulate MG fire.....We still did twot training and we still carried out the repetitive training with or with out ammo.
There was a noticable increase in UD, s accross the board with the intro of the F88. The push button safty and trigger guard are the culprits imo. Don, t think we actually got the best weapon for our needs. Its a good weapon, but is it the best for our army?
Probably not.
 

kiwi in exile

Active Member
I don't think I can link to anything. The Army finalised the small arms modernisation plan late last year, and it was signed off by the chief at the end on November. The plan talks about how all small arms, heavy weapons, ancillaries etc will be modernised. The issue of the new daysight was just one very small part.

The main effort of the plan is rationalisation. Thanks to rapid purchases for ops etc over the last decade, there are lots and lots of boutique quantities of equipment in many configurations in service, which is expensive to sustain and train. The new plan will rationalise everything so essentially there will be only one type of equipment in every category, and they will all be in a like configuration. Day sights are a good example - there are currently something like seven different day sights in service, all of which will be replaced by a single sight.

The plan is very comprehensive and there are lots of very interesting things in there. It is almost entirely positive, but there are a few decisions that will be controversial, and a few that are perhaps a bit too ambitious. It is basically all thanks to the efforts of a very energetic LTCOL who is the SO1 of combat development. Most of the new soldier equipment coming into service (weapons, uniforms, helmets, body armour etc) are thanks to his ability to be smarter than everyone else on the room, and convince people to sign off his plans because no one can fault the logic behind them.

I imagine after the Christmas stand down you will start seeing articles in the army rag etc with some details.
This still seems strange to me. The two types of ACOGs i listed were announced as part of the EF88 PR. And the thinking was different optics for different Tiers, rather than a heavy, expensive top of the line optic for all. This has only just happened so for the ADF to upgrade optics again so soon seems strange. I'll have to wait and see I guess.

cheers
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Things change. The contract negotiations for all the ancillaries as part of the EF88 program only finished a couple of months ago. The key decision was convincing the money keepers thst it was cheaper long term to only have a single sight for everyone, even if the upfront costs were higher.

Just wait until the EF88 starts getting issued to units, and see what's on top I guess. (The weapons issued to 1 RAR are only for trial and used ACOGs that 1 RAR already had in stock).
 

kiwi in exile

Active Member
Wonder what the thinking was behind the move. I would have thought (apart from the obvious benefits of rationalising) the ADF would have been reasonbly happy with the ACOG/RMR combo. Afterall the USMC use it as standard and its very common in the US army, not to mention with NZDF/NZSAS (SAS- based on interweb photos).
 

the road runner

Active Member
Wonder what the thinking was behind the move. I would have thought (apart from the obvious benefits of rationalising) the ADF would have been reasonbly happy with the ACOG/RMR combo. Afterall the USMC use it as standard and its very common in the US army, not to mention with NZDF/NZSAS (SAS- based on interweb photos).
The ACOG is a fixed power scope Trijicon do make a variable scope that is the VCOG

The RMR do fog up in wet weather.
The RMR comes in 2 versions
1.Fibre optic version,that is great for outside use but indoor where there is no ambient light the chevron can be lost

2.LED version great for low light ,im not sure if the led version is effected by bright light in outdoor use

I dont know if these are the reasons why the ADF went with an Elcan 1-4 Variable ,but flicking a switch to change from 1 power to 4 power must be a good selling point
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Wonder what the thinking was behind the move. I would have thought (apart from the obvious benefits of rationalising) the ADF would have been reasonbly happy with the ACOG/RMR combo. Afterall the USMC use it as standard and its very common in the US army, not to mention with NZDF/NZSAS (SAS- based on interweb photos).
I can only imagine that the Spectre won because it was objectively determined to be the best sight. Australian SOCOMD already has lots of them in service, supplanting ACOGs, so that probably helps.

Edit: Here's a link to a couple of photos of the EF88 with Spectre sight. I couldn't find any decent ones on the defence website because the image archive is terrible.

https://mobile.twitter.com/tom_antonov/status/546662288393265153

A couple more:
http://images.defence.gov.au/20151022adf8160650_039.jpg

http://images.defence.gov.au/20151022adf8160650_051.jpg
 
Last edited:

kiwi in exile

Active Member
I can only imagine that the Spectre won because it was objectively determined to be the best sight. Australian SOCOMD already has lots of them in service, supplanting ACOGs, so that probably helps.

Edit: Here's a link to a couple of photos of the EF88 with Spectre sight. I couldn't find any decent ones on the defence website because the image archive is terrible.

https://mobile.twitter.com/tom_antonov/status/546662288393265153
great. thanks.
i have been a fan of the spectre, but i just though it would be too costly for general issue.
CD has stated that nzdf LMTs will have ACOGs. Hopefully this was decided as part of the ISWRUP replacement trial rather than just 'lets keep riding the same horse'
Still would like to see a range of tools in the shed.
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
There has been a bit more info released by Lewis Machine and Tool at an annual trade show in Las Vegas. They were displaying what is supposedly the AR-15 variant sold to NZ. Apart from some confusion over whether it is the Modular ASSAULT Rifle System - Light or the Modular AMBIDEXTROUS Rifle System - Light, the interwebs seem to think it is a pretty decent weapon. So that's sorted then!

BREAKING: LMT To Release New Rifle System At SHOT Show 2016 - The Firearm Blog

New from LMT: MARS-L Rifle - The Truth About Guns

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWKERSAnUUA

Update - LMT belatedly puts out a release confirming the A does stand for Ambidextrous, which they seem to think is a key selling point. And it definitely is the rifle NZ is getting. Retail price for a (presumably semi-auto version) in the US is $2347.90. I have no idea, but that sounds like a hell of a lot for a something produced on a military scale - they are presumably aiming (argh, sorry) for the top end of the market.

LMT Defense Announces MARS-L Fully Ambidextrous Rifle Platform | Jerking the Trigger
 

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Update - LMT belatedly puts out a release confirming the A does stand for Ambidextrous, which they seem to think is a key selling point. And it definitely is the rifle NZ is getting. Retail price for a (presumably semi-auto version) in the US is $2347.90. I have no idea, but that sounds like a hell of a lot for a something produced on a military scale - they are presumably aiming (argh, sorry) for the top end of the market.
Sorry 40DS
Real life getting in the way of posting, I to saw TFB blog about LMT and understood why LMT changed the name to ambidextrous, you have to understand what shot show is all about its selling different weapons to the civilian market first and foremost, one of the reasons LMT changed Assault to ambidextrous is purely to satisfy the current administration dislike for all things named assault in it, makes good business sense to remain under the radar with the Feds.

Now back to NZ Army the name MARS-L (Modular Assault Rifle – Lite) was deliberate what NZDF posted on the video was the very basic Infantry configuration for the MARS with its open architecture makes this system very easy to upgrade and it makes a lot of sense for example here are the current day/night sites that will fit onto the weapon:

Now remember Im Combat Arms centric: the following I drew from the RfT

1. The Trijicon ACOG TA31 NZ 5.56 (147 mm long, optical centre 38 mm above the rail) is the current in-service NZDF Primary Optic sight and is the standard IWS for the Crown. It is to remain fitted to the IW throughout the 24hr battle.
2. RMR sight also from Trijicon,
3. Its performance in low light and darkness is supported by the use of the AN/PVS-22 (195mm long) - N-VISION OPTICS - NIGHT VISION - AN/PVS-22 Universal Night Sight
or alternatively the CNVD-T2 (135 mm long) In Line Weapon Sights. - EOTech CNVD-T2 Clip-On Thermal Imaging Sight with Laser Pointer CQT-001-A12 FREE S&H CQT-001-A12
4. AN/PEQ 15 Night Aiming Device, Torch Combat WMX-200 Illuminator, Iron Sights & Folding Fore-Grip.
Now as you can see that is a lot of coin to purchase for the whole of NZDF so is everyone going to get that the answer is no and can be found in the Rft:

NZDF intends to field the IWs in a number of configurations, depending on respective unit’s operational outputs.

I have stated this information before why we went with Trijicon and the answer is very simple, Army (Small Arms Wing Combat School) in conjunction with the designer at Trijicon helped develop a sight picture based on how the NZ Army operates you can see a picture of it in Army News 437

Hope this helps.

CD
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
Sorry 40DS
Real life getting in the way of posting, I to saw TFB blog about LMT and understood why LMT changed the name to ambidextrous, you have to understand what shot show is all about its selling different weapons to the civilian market first and foremost, one of the reasons LMT changed Assault to ambidextrous is purely to satisfy the current administration dislike for all things named assault in it, makes good business sense to remain under the radar with the Feds.

Now back to NZ Army the name MARS-L (Modular Assault Rifle – Lite) was deliberate what NZDF posted on the video was the very basic Infantry configuration for the MARS with its open architecture makes this system very easy to upgrade and it makes a lot of sense for example here are the current day/night sites that will fit onto the weapon:

Now remember Im Combat Arms centric: the following I drew from the RfT

1. The Trijicon ACOG TA31 NZ 5.56 (147 mm long, optical centre 38 mm above the rail) is the current in-service NZDF Primary Optic sight and is the standard IWS for the Crown. It is to remain fitted to the IW throughout the 24hr battle.
2. RMR sight also from Trijicon,
3. Its performance in low light and darkness is supported by the use of the AN/PVS-22 (195mm long) - N-VISION OPTICS - NIGHT VISION - AN/PVS-22 Universal Night Sight
or alternatively the CNVD-T2 (135 mm long) In Line Weapon Sights. - EOTech CNVD-T2 Clip-On Thermal Imaging Sight with Laser Pointer CQT-001-A12 FREE S&H CQT-001-A12
4. AN/PEQ 15 Night Aiming Device, Torch Combat WMX-200 Illuminator, Iron Sights & Folding Fore-Grip.
Now as you can see that is a lot of coin to purchase for the whole of NZDF so is everyone going to get that the answer is no and can be found in the Rft:

NZDF intends to field the IWs in a number of configurations, depending on respective unit’s operational outputs.

I have stated this information before why we went with Trijicon and the answer is very simple, Army (Small Arms Wing Combat School) in conjunction with the designer at Trijicon helped develop a sight picture based on how the NZ Army operates you can see a picture of it in Army News 437

Hope this helps.

CD
Thanks CD.

Highly informative as always.
The last few years have seen impressive progress with the NZDF weapons replacement project. Are there any more pieces of the jigsaw still to be slotted in?

What about the rumoured replacement of the surviving Unimogs with a civilian design (Hino?) for use within NZ, reserving the MANs for deployment offshore? Or with they try to flog the Mogs into the ground before stumping up for a replacement?
 

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Thanks CD.

Highly informative as always.
The last few years have seen impressive progress with the NZDF weapons replacement project. Are there any more pieces of the jigsaw still to be slotted in?

What about the rumoured replacement of the surviving Unimogs with a civilian design (Hino?) for use within NZ, reserving the MANs for deployment offshore? Or with they try to flog the Mogs into the ground before stumping up for a replacement?
There still are a few more weapon systems to go ie M3 CG sights, Mag58 SFMG tripod & C2 site replacement, Anti material rifle (DFSW point), as for the Mog replacement thats gone off the radar at the moment not to sure what's happening with that the paper wasn't fully developed when I left RF and to be honest being a truck that dont really interest this Grunt...

CD
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
There still are a few more weapon systems to go ie M3 CG sights, Mag58 SFMG tripod & C2 site replacement, Anti material rifle (DFSW point), as for the Mog replacement thats gone off the radar at the moment not to sure what's happening with that the paper wasn't fully developed when I left RF and to be honest being a truck that dont really interest this Grunt...

CD
Dave They were looking at the FN M3M 50 cal a couple or so years back. Have you heard anything more about it?
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
Thanks CD.

Highly informative as always.
The last few years have seen impressive progress with the NZDF weapons replacement project. Are there any more pieces of the jigsaw still to be slotted in?

What about the rumoured replacement of the surviving Unimogs with a civilian design (Hino?) for use within NZ, reserving the MANs for deployment offshore? Or with they try to flog the Mogs into the ground before stumping up for a replacement?
Yes still nothing on the garrison fleet replacement, interestingly still see alot of the legacy 2228s ie 6 wheeler cargos, tractor units rolling around (on task) but supposedly these have already been replaced with the MAN variants complete so unless they are getting more, did'nt get enough or maybe getting a civ version of these as well then they should have already been sent to auction or at least parked up as well by now. Wonder if they will tag these onto the CL fleet and lease or buy outright? Surely not rentals when and if needed like defence does abit now as these would be alittle different to a hiace or hilux in terms of cost.

I guess they are really getting VFM out of the mercedes now coming up 35 years of hard yakka and even harder driving, classic NZDF operating mantra though, run them until they are only good for museum peices, target practice or dive wrecks. Be good farm wagons, mogs and 22s.
 

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Dave They were looking at the FN M3M 50 cal a couple or so years back. Have you heard anything more about it?
Army brought M2QCB as the DFSW-P, this new system will replace the M2 in that role and is still being defined at the battle lab what it is will be anyone's guess as NZSAS do have Barrett's in .50cal.

CD
 

kiwi in exile

Active Member
Feb Army News has the good oil on the new rifle system.

http://army.mil.nz/downloads/pdf/army-news/armynews469.pdf

Largely confirms the various material already posted on this site (Thanks, CD!).
Wonder if the shift to the newer fifle/ammo (Mk262 Mod 1) means that the BDC/reticules in the ACOG need to be redone. Apparently new round/rifle extends range to 600m from the <400m reported in NZ media re A-stan.

Comes in black with optional camo paint, contra to earlier reports of a green rifle.
Airforce and navy versions have 14.5 inch barrel.
Was hoping we would get M320 under barrel grenade launchers.
 
Top