Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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Stampede

Well-Known Member
Noticed today in the Australian Defence Business Review a short article confirming that the Competative Evaluation Process has started for the future frigate and offshore Patrol Vessel Projects.
Given the time table of 2018 and 2020 to start construction, it appears the government is commited to get things moving on these two projects.
Looking forward to seeing what type of vessels are selected and what capabilities are specified.
Regards S
 

Oberon

Member
Invisible to those outside the paywall. Any chance of a few salient quotes to give the core of the report?

Oldsig
by Brendon Nicholson, The Australian, December 17, 2015


As the troubled air warfare *destroyer project suffered delays and lost money, it was widely considered the toughest part of the program would be fitting the massively complex combat system that is the ship’s whole reason for existence.


In a remarkable turnaround, that system has just been fitted to the first destroyer, to be commissioned HMAS Hobart, on time and on budget.

On an exclusive visit to the warship, The Australian was shown the start of the activation process for the systems that will be used to fight in the sort of high-intensity warfare for which it was designed.

The ships will use a US-built defence system known as Aegis to provide a screen over the fleet, *especially the navy’s new troop carriers, or landing helicopter docks, or over forces on a hostile shore to protect them against missile and aircraft attack.

The decision to obtain them was made after the Australian Defence Force sought discreet support from the US and Britain when it found itself without protective cover during the intervention in East Timor in 1999.

Depending on a decision still to be made by an Australian government, the missile systems aboard the destroyers could be upgraded to allow them to be used as part of a ballistic missile defence system to protect Australia against nuclear-tipped intercontinental ballistic missiles such as those on which North Korea is working.

The degree of difficultly involved in destroying a missile dropping out of space has been compared with hitting a rifle *bullet with another rifle bullet. This has been done repeatedly in tests carried out by the US and Japanese navies.

Costs have been reeled in as the first of the three ships nears completion but the federal government has had to put an extra $1.2 billion into the project, taking it to a total of about $9bn for the vessels.

Rod Equid, the regional general manager for the combat *system integrator Raytheon Australia, said about 90 per cent of the ship’s strategic value to the navy was in the combat system.

Effectively, the rest of the ship was there to get that highly sophisticated integration of radar systems, massive computers and protective missiles to where they’d be needed.

Loyd Beckett, an American appointed several months ago as general manager of the Air Warfare Destroyer Alliance, said that even with its problems the *destroyer project had progressed much more smoothly than many similar shipbuilding projects in the US and elsewhere.

By international benchmarks, the project was much more successful than many in Australia *believed, he said.

The second vessel in the fleet would be much closer to schedule and budget and with the benefit of the experience building the first two destroyers, the third ship was likely to come in ahead of schedule and under budget.

Mr Beckett said that as problems with the first ship were identified, they were able to be avoided in the second.

By the time the third was complete it was likely some of the lost time would have been made up and some of the cost overruns *balanced with savings. And as many other ships built in earlier projects were delivered fitted “for” their weapons and other key equipment rather than “with” it, all of the systems on Hobart and its sister ships would be fully functional and tested *before it was handed over to the navy.

The Australian visited the project as a guest of Raytheon
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
As per usual, Foreigners can see how well we have done it but the Australian government, Media and Public is too simple minder, short sighted and lacking in support and belief that we can actually do these projects (Even though we have done them time and time again, Only to have the bad parts nit picked at).

To have the third ship expected to be coming it at under projected cost is a major achievement, Most have to have a much larger production run to achieve such a result, Us doing it in 3 is nothing short of spectacular.
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
To have the third ship expected to be coming it at under projected cost is a major achievement, Most have to have a much larger production run to achieve such a result, Us doing it in 3 is nothing short of spectacular.
You're not hanging your hat on 'expected' savings are you? If all procurement programs ran as the manufacturer told you they 'expected', we'd have a lot less to talk about on this forum.

It'd be interesting to know what savings they are talking about as well. Saving money from the original budget, or saving money from the revised budget that has blown out by billions? It is classic spin to increase the budget by a billion, then deliver the final product for only 500 million more and try to claim a saving of half a billion.
 
You're not hanging your hat on 'expected' savings are you? If all procurement programs ran as the manufacturer told you they 'expected', we'd have a lot less to talk about on this forum.

It'd be interesting to know what savings they are talking about as well. Saving money from the original budget, or saving money from the revised budget that has blown out by billions? It is classic spin to increase the budget by a billion, then deliver the final product for only 500 million more and try to claim a saving of half a billion.
I understand where you're coming from, but if I'm honest I'll just be glad to see the bloody things in the water.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
You're not hanging your hat on 'expected' savings are you? If all procurement programs ran as the manufacturer told you they 'expected', we'd have a lot less to talk about on this forum.

It'd be interesting to know what savings they are talking about as well. Saving money from the original budget, or saving money from the revised budget that has blown out by billions? It is classic spin to increase the budget by a billion, then deliver the final product for only 500 million more and try to claim a saving of half a billion.
Hobart was the prototype of a new (sub) class of warship and the pilot build of a new yard and a new industrial model. The build was begun well before the design was completed and, unfortunately, even before the main subcontractors had been determined. Construction facilities had yet to be completed, much of the work force had to be hired, let alone trained, while key assumptions about the build strategy were not only in a state of flux, they were actually being completely reinterpreted.

Many of these things were not due to poor planning but rather a completely unrealistic schedule driven by political considerations. The failure to order a single new worship following the ANZAC class of the mid 90s ensured that there would be a shipbuilding black hole and loss of capability, compounding this by awarding the build to a completely new industrial model as well as a new yard and a new shipbuilding entity ensured that we were forcing industry to literally start from scratch.

The government did not even determine that an AWD (to replace the Perth class DDG) was needed, until it was realised that we could not even deploy forces in our own backyard following Timor. Replacements had been planned but deferred and looked likely to never be ordered, with less capable designs hoped to be able to step up (FFG UP and ANZAC WIP) while capability was reduced in real terms. This was not dissimilar to the run down of MBTs, the upgrade of the APCs, the almost cancellation of the Bushmaster, the actual cancellation of Mulgara and SPG, as well as the botched acquisition of RAH and MRH helicopters. .

Defence procurement from the mid/late 90s was an absolute joke. It had been completely rejigged for political reasons, with key programs left in limbo for years at the same time as existing ADF and industrial capability, was rundown (even deliberately gutted) in the name of "efficiency". New projects were awarded on the basis of pork barrelling and necessary capabilities were degraded, deferred or scrapped. I am surprised things are not worse.

It wasn't industry making unfounded claims about capability, cost and schedule it was government. They had screwed up, they knew they had screwed up, so lied, kicked off new projects on schedules they were told could not be achieved in the full knowledge that once it fell apart it would be so far down the track it would be someone else's problem. You don't tell the electorate you caused irreparable damage to the efficient and capable strategic shipbuilding industry, or that you cut defence capability, you simply announce a project with cost and schedule that are unachievable and pretend you did your bit.
 

walter

Active Member
As per usual, Foreigners can see how well we have done it but the Australian government, Media and Public is too simple minder, short sighted and lacking in support and belief that we can actually do these projects (Even though we have done them time and time again, Only to have the bad parts nit picked at).

To have the third ship expected to be coming it at under projected cost is a major achievement, Most have to have a much larger production run to achieve such a result, Us doing it in 3 is nothing short of spectacular.

Question;

Could that also be because the "Hobart" is an "evolution" of the "Alvaro"?,i mean the basics where known,just a thought.Nevertheless a fine achievement.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
IMO we should have probably teamed up with the Americans and launched the first AWD back in the late 90's. But for that to happen we had to have made some big decisions (be on the bleeding edge) when the cold war was ending and our traditional threats evaporated. IMO it is unlikely we would have anything ready for Timor, and even if we did it was unlikely to be as capable. Heck even the UK destroyer type 42 Glasgow was even out of her depth in Timor. Really in the late 90's the US was the only one with the sort of capable ship we needed.

I would assume if the 3rd ship goes well it will put up a strong argument for the frigate replacement to be based on the F-105 hull.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
IMO we should have probably teamed up with the Americans and launched the first AWD back in the late 90's. But for that to happen we had to have made some big decisions (be on the bleeding edge) when the cold war was ending and our traditional threats evaporated. IMO it is unlikely we would have anything ready for Timor, and even if we did it was unlikely to be as capable. Heck even the UK destroyer type 42 Glasgow was even out of her depth in Timor. Really in the late 90's the US was the only one with the sort of capable ship we needed.

I would assume if the 3rd ship goes well it will put up a strong argument for the frigate replacement to be based on the F-105 hull.
Would never have happened, The absolute best we ever could have hoped for is that they didn't stuff around for so many years and actually had something ready to start building by the time the HMAS Perth was rolled out. Would have meant the Burke's would be our only real option but we would probably be better for it.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
De Zeven Provincien & Álvaro de Bazán both commissioned in 2002, a year after the last Perth class decommissioned. If a decision on a replacement had been made earlier, Australia could have got new ships soon after that. Not quite when the Perths retired, but only a short gap.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Would never have happened, The absolute best we ever could have hoped for is that they didn't stuff around for so many years and actually had something ready to start building by the time the HMAS Perth was rolled out. Would have meant the Burke's would be our only real option but we would probably be better for it.
For an AWD in time to replace the Perths the options were a US or local build of Burkes, an interim acquisition of NTU Kidds (to get us through to 2015/20 depending on level of subsequent modernisation) or a less capable (but possibly still good enough) evolved smaller non/US design. We could technically have gone for a local, evolved and improved design based on the Burke or even a totally new local design in partnership with a US sponsor.

All options relied on the Howard government proceeding with a timely DDG replacement, irrespective of whether Keating had kicked anything off, at a time they were targeting defence procurement, industry and the ADF with savage efficiency reviews "cuts". This was pre Timor and War on Terror, defence was not an issue, it was all about national debt, balance of payments and efficiency gains, the catch cry in defence was fixing the"teeth to tail" ratio.
 

Oberon

Member
For an AWD in time to replace the Perths the options were a US or local build of Burkes, an interim acquisition of NTU Kidds (to get us through to 2015/20 depending on level of subsequent modernisation) or a less capable (but possibly still good enough) evolved smaller non/US design. We could technically have gone for a local, evolved and improved design based on the Burke or even a totally new local design in partnership with a US sponsor.

All options relied on the Howard government proceeding with a timely DDG replacement, irrespective of whether Keating had kicked anything off, at a time they were targeting defence procurement, industry and the ADF with savage efficiency reviews "cuts". This was pre Timor and War on Terror, defence was not an issue, it was all about national debt, balance of payments and efficiency gains, the catch cry in defence was fixing the"teeth to tail" ratio.
That pretty much sums up the situation in the late nineties/ early noughties. E Timor and 9/11 changed our strategic outlook. I also recall that Howard called for a new DWP when he was elected in 1996 - not unreasonable when you consider that the Liberals had just been returned to government after almost 12 years in opposition. Many projects, like the AEWAC project, were delayed until the new DWP and DCP were completed
 

hairyman

Active Member
Why is it that the Arleigh Burke was the only suitable ship available? I am sure our sailors would not have minded being on some Daring class Destroyers.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Why is it that the Arleigh Burke was the only suitable ship available? I am sure our sailors would not have minded being on some Daring class Destroyers.
The Daring is a great platform with a lot of subsequently proven, bleeding edge, features, that at the time were perceived as unproven and risky. It was eliminated from consideration as the existing design pretty much when the government decided on AEGIS, while the combination of having to integrate a new combat system into a revolutionary platform drastically exceeded the Commonwealths risk appetite.

Interestingly a number of senior industry and procurement people had suggested a Type 45 / SPY3 / Mk41 combination could be an outstanding, low risk, future proofed Australianised option and put it forward before AWD kicked off. Unfortunately the audience was far from technically savy and thought they knew better than the experts, which is how we ended up with AWD Alliance, FFGUP, ANZAC WIP, MU90, Super Sea Sprite, Tiger, MRH90, Vigilair, the original drone project, M-113 upgrade, etc.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Why is it that the Arleigh Burke was the only suitable ship available? I am sure our sailors would not have minded being on some Daring class Destroyers.
I'm no fan of the T45. Another Brit fitted "for but not with", introduced early with power problems, an under developed missile system, no Harpoon, no CEC, and a radar which, IMHO, is dated although quite capable.
Some of these shortcomings have been rectified but not all.
They were late and over budget in the UK so imagine the possibilities in Oz.

As for the AB, well numbers, long evolution and comparable weapons, sensors seal the deal for me. We should have jumped on that bandwagon years ago.
 

Oberon

Member
As for the AB, well numbers, long evolution and comparable weapons, sensors seal the deal for me. We should have jumped on that bandwagon years ago.
That was until the Alvaro de Bazan sailed into Sydney Harbour and impressed the government of the day.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
That was until the Alvaro de Bazan sailed into Sydney Harbour and impressed the government of the day.
Yes because naturally the newest and shiniest must be the best choice :)

In regards to them, While its to late to order a 4th to keep the line open are 3 AWD's enough to suit our needs/requirements? While far superior to the Perth's and Adelaide's that they are replacing I do wonder if we will be lacking in actual numbers especially once you account for transit time, maintenance schedules, etc etc
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
I'm no fan of the T45. Another Brit fitted "for but not with", introduced early with power problems, an under developed missile system, no Harpoon, no CEC, and a radar which, IMHO, is dated although quite capable.
Some of these shortcomings have been rectified but not all.
They were late and over budget in the UK so imagine the possibilities in Oz.

As for the AB, well numbers, long evolution and comparable weapons, sensors seal the deal for me. We should have jumped on that bandwagon years ago.
Well, the Oz version would probably have used IWCI with ESSM and SM2. Harpoon is easy which just leaves CEC to write up. I don't think the radar is dated in comparison to SPY1-D(V) which is what the Hobarts are going into the water with - first introduced in 1998 so the design will be 17 years old when they first light up in a Hobart.

In both cases, BMD will be a "pay to have it yourself"
I can sympathise with the risk element involved however, as the UK project was fairly badly controlled for risk and blew out quite a bit.

We nearly flogged a pair to the Saudis but made a total cockup with the bid by all accounts.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Yes because naturally the newest and shiniest must be the best choice :)

In regards to them, While its to late to order a 4th to keep the line open are 3 AWD's enough to suit our needs/requirements? While far superior to the Perth's and Adelaide's that they are replacing I do wonder if we will be lacking in actual numbers especially once you account for transit time, maintenance schedules, etc etc
Back in 2006 I was told by an academic with a line into capability development that no matter how defence crunched the numbers three AWDs would be insufficient due to the amount of time each ship would have to spend in the US for maintenance and upgrade of the AEGIS system as the government had originally planned to have this work done in the US to keep cost and complexity down. I have never been able to discover if this was actually the case and the government changed their mind and funded a local capability, or rather if they just decided to wear the risk.

From what I have seen a lot of stuff originally intended to be brought in as plug and play has since been revisited with far greater local involvement, hence manpower, man hours, hence cost. I wonder how much this has impacted on cost and schedule?

I do know there were many facets of the project where it was assumed we would just building to print, everything would be on time and to spec and would fit together and work perfectly first time and despite all the advice to government this would not be the case, they were shocked when the first defects appeared. There are now teams of people reviewing design data and documentation that was meant to be complete and correct but wasn't and other teams inspecting, surveying and auditing material, procured and fabricated items that the paperwork said was complete and correct. Costs the government never. Anticipated because we were buying a proven design from an experienced designer and builder with an established supply chain. What we weren't getting was the Spanish Navys quality team and surveyors, the assistance they received from LM and GD or the benefit of an established yard with an experienced workforce.
 
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