Not quite - we're seeing some orders for a first batch, which is at this time intended to be followed by more orders. Every other RN ship has been ordered in this way.
I've not seen a formal announcement that numbers have been cut, have you?
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I've not seen a formal announcement that numbers have been cut, have you?
kev 99
Member
So far I think the announcement has just been about an initial order being lower than the 13 that the RN was expecting. So nothing concrete.
Excuse the one-liner type post, but this is an honest question. Was the RN expecting 13 in the initial order? I was under the impression that it would be 8 procured to replace the towed-array type 23's and then a following order for "less capable" type 26's. Correct me where I'm wrong because that is what I've heard from not so reliable sources.
Well, the announcement was was always going to be lower than the total build anticipated - it's the way we ordered Type 42, 22, 23, 45 etc.
kev 99
Member
No, you're quite right this is more or less exactly what everyone was expecting, ordering in batches, it's what the RN has done for decades.
Sorry guys - I REFUSE to get into this urination contest....
Let's just leave it at 13 ships...:dance
After all T45 was gonna be 8 & we got 6
We all know how it works & with a 'contract' that has the 1st ship into service for 2020 & will run thru to 2038-ish.... ??
How many Govts will revolve thru Westminster in that time ??
From the SDSR
" We will maintain one of the most capable anti-submarine
fleets in the world with the introduction of eight advanced Type 26 Global Combat
Ships, which will start to replace our current Type 23 frigates in their anti-submarine
role. We will maintain our fleet of 19 frigates and destroyers"
19 frigates and destroyers.
Which to me would indicate an intention to get an initial order for the 8 discussed Type 26 with TSA plus five more frigates which would necessarily be cheapest if they were follow on orders for Type 26 of some spec or another.
And remember, a lot of kit is being pulled through Type 23 as "future legacy" items such as Sea Ceptor cells, Artisan 3D, plus a number of other bits. It's just not going to be cheaper to invent a new ship to put that on if you've got Type 26 in serial build. Other things could easily go wrong but I don't see a new and cheaper, less capable platform being seen as attractive.
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It specifically says a 'lighter ... general-purpose frigate', & all mentions of Type 26 include ASW, e.g. replacing the ASW role of Type 23. I don't see any way of reading it other than eight ASW T26 replacing the eight ASW T23, & a new, smaller GP frigate a la Italian PPA replacing the remaining T23.
I'm sticking to reading it straight, as far as possible without interpretation.
PS. From Cameron's speech:
“There will be eight of the Type 26s and at least another five of the new type of frigate, probably more".
I'm sticking to reading it straight, as far as possible without interpretation.
PS. From Cameron's speech:
“There will be eight of the Type 26s and at least another five of the new type of frigate, probably more".
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Didn't spot that in my earlier hasty reading of it all. I'm suspecting we'll find out the actual import of that announcement in a less immediate future, possibly long after the current government is gone. The question mark is over what that GP frigate would be like - I'm guessing we get to pull the Sea Ceptor and sensor fitment through but the rest is TBA.
I still suspect that building a type 26 lite hull would be sensibly cheaper but that'd depend on what the drivers are for performance etc,
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I still suspect that building a type 26 lite hull would be sensibly cheaper but that'd depend on what the drivers are for performance etc,
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Navy Flagship HMS Ocean Quietly Scrapped By Government Despite £65 Million Refit Last Year
I wonder who will be in the queue for ex RN warships....
as the current fascination for medium to large navies is expeditionary capability using a flat deck but not an aircraft carrier - then I imagine the RN dance card will be popular
I wonder who will be in the queue for ex RN warships....
as the current fascination for medium to large navies is expeditionary capability using a flat deck but not an aircraft carrier - then I imagine the RN dance card will be popular
Last paragraph of the article reads
That's not quite so excitingly newsworthy (not to mention trouble making), so it's amazing the HuffPost didn't leave it out altogether
oldsig
missed that bit completely
That is still a two year gap unless QE is planned to be certified for at least limited ops by then.
The issue is the UK seems to continually suffer from these self inflicted capability gaps where government decides against a life extension, interim capability or even (frighteningly often) retired capabilities early. This is pretty much always for cost reasons and seems to totally ignore strategic factors, leaving to wonder if they actually permit a proper risk assessment to be undertaken.
Risk analysis? Of course not! What next? Will you ask if they make any attempt to assess value for money?
Just look at the history. Constant changes of direction. We're going to keep X type in service until year Y. No, we'll retire it in Y-5. No, Y+3. No, we'll keep it until Y. How much did we spend on that? Oh dear, we'll have to get rid of some soldiers to pay for it.
Just look at the history. Constant changes of direction. We're going to keep X type in service until year Y. No, we'll retire it in Y-5. No, Y+3. No, we'll keep it until Y. How much did we spend on that? Oh dear, we'll have to get rid of some soldiers to pay for it.
To be fair, this is hardly something unique to the UK. Show me a democracy that doesn't change defence priorities with each change of government? They are rare. It's disturbingly common for the main political parties to preach unanimity on national defence in one statement and demonise every decision of the other party in the next. Enough of that makes it politically impossible NOT to back and veer,
oldsig
It was a gap which was always going to happen, the facts were that 2018 was the projected and the rumour was that maybe it'd stretch to 2022.
QE starts builders sea trials in August 2016, helicopter flight trials in 2017 and F-35B flight trials at the end of 2018 (although there'll only be 4 in the UK by then).
Taking that into account, if the SHTF then the amount of paperwork needing to declare IOC could be rapidly reduced and an LPH capability (by far in excess of what Ocean could do) could be ready in that timeline. I'm not worried about it.
As for Type 26, I just laughed. Personally hoping that they go with a T-26-lite design.
QE starts builders sea trials in August 2016, helicopter flight trials in 2017 and F-35B flight trials at the end of 2018 (although there'll only be 4 in the UK by then).
Taking that into account, if the SHTF then the amount of paperwork needing to declare IOC could be rapidly reduced and an LPH capability (by far in excess of what Ocean could do) could be ready in that timeline. I'm not worried about it.
As for Type 26, I just laughed. Personally hoping that they go with a T-26-lite design.
We get backing & veering by the same government.
kev 99
Member
Yes, I'm wondering what would be possible if the reconfigurable mission bay were removed or a less expensive option installed instead.
SpazSinbad
Active Member
A bunch of text from a magazine article:
RULING THE WAVES AGAIN Dec 2015 Tim Ripley
"...In mid-2018, HMS Queen Elizabeth is to set sail across the Atlantic to conduct F-35B integration trials off the US east coast. The joint US/UK F-35B Integrated Task Force has already carried out the initial stage of these tests at Naval Air Station Patuxent River, Maryland, including live take-offs from a ski jump built at the edge of the airfield’s runway. US Navy carriers do not have ski jumps and the UK is funding and conducting this part of the programme itself.
There has been considerable controversy over whether the first F-35B to land on HMS Queen Elizabeth will be a British aircraft flown by a British pilot. The MOD has recognised the symbolic significance of the moment and a UK aircraft will undoubtedly line up to fly this symbolic mission, with a ‘Brit’ at the controls.
The later phases of F-35B integration trials, however, will be fully multinational, with US Marine Corps aircraft and pilots playing a full role since the UK’s first operational F-35B unit, the RAF’s 617 Squadron, will not be fully up and running. Once the famous ‘Dambusters’ have fully converted to the F-35B during 2018 and achieved Initial Operating Capability (Land) at RAF Marham, Norfolk, the unit will prepare for full operational trials in HMS Queen Elizabeth.
This phase of the carrier’s entry to service will take place in UK waters during 2019; it will involve mass take-offs and landings, live ordnance drops and onboard maintenance. This is considered the critical test of the carrier programme and will pave the way for the declaration of Initial Operating Capability (Sea) in 2020, when at least nine F-35Bs will be available to embark on HMS Queen Elizabeth. Full operating capability is targeted for 2022, when the Crowsnest system will be in use and the second UK F-35B unit, 809 Naval Air Squadron, will be fully established."
Air Forces Monthly Magazine December 2015