We have had a free trade agreement with them since 2008, we are also on there most favoured nation status list for Chinese tourists, I'd say we are pretty chummy with them.
Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates
- Thread starter Padman
- Start date
That's just business pure and simple. Although in a Chinese perspective it's also political because everything is political. However just because we have a business and trade relationship with them does not mean that we would be considered friends in a security and defence sense.
The Chinese do not operate or think in a western sense and we would be fools to think otherwise. They have been the Middle Kingdom for something like 2000 years and just because the current imperial dynasty is politically based rather than bloodline, does not make it any different in the long term. They are still same culture and still have the same cultural imperatives regardless of the ruling dynasty. The Middle Kingdom still sees the foreign barbarians as inferiors and these inferiors should acknowledge the superiority of and pay tribute to the Middle Kingdom, as much today as in times past. That is their history with the Vietnamese, Koreans and Khmers along with the Thai off and on. The other thing that is very much at the fore front of the Chinese psyche at the moment, is the 100 years of shame inflicted upon China by the foreign devils (Western and Japanese) from the 1840s to 1949. That has a large bearing on their current political, military and foreign policy. Finally even though the current dynasty is Maoist / Leninist / Deng Xiaoping, they still adhere to the the Sun Tzu ping fa in their strategic planning. So any arrangements with NZ will be formulated in that context.
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kiwipatriot69
Active Member
yeah, i saw that.
i wonder if they will come down and vist lytellton while thier at it, probably just Devenport naval base eh? In any case,given the current climate its good to see them visting us again, the more the merrier.
It could be a possibility because there has been a long history between the USN and Christchurch with VXE6 being part of Operation Deep Freeze out at Harewood. When we had the RNZN 50th Anniversary in 1991, Officers and EM from VXE6 participated in the celebrations at HMNZS Pegasus after the charter parade through the city. The USN personnel were in uniform, their equivalent to RNZN No 1s. The RNZN CN was present at the time and not a pollie to be seen. There was a close relationship between the personnel of VXE6 and the personnel of HMNZS Pegasus for the whole time of the USN deployment to Harewood.yeah, i saw that.
Zero Alpha
New Member
Don't expect anything too flash to visit. An oiler maybe, LCS at a pinch. More likely a USCG cutter us the bouy tender working in the Pacific. Small steps...
kiwipatriot69
Active Member
I suppose there would be logistics to what sort size Lytellton or devonport could accomodate, Im certainly not expecting a Aircraft Carrrier
Actually a LCS would be interesting given its design .
CINCPAC will possibly be the one to make the decision because it comes under his area of responsibility, hence it could be anything from a band and a ceremonial drill team up to a destroyer at the outside. An LCS is one possibility but they only have a limited number in service within the Asia Pacific region at the moment. If it's a ship possibly a frigate. This will be naval diplomacy so considering the history between the USN and the RNZN in WW2 and since, I think a Coast Guard cutter may possibly be perceived as a slight in some circles. Hence the US will be giving the invitation, their response and their representation considerable thought.
40 deg south
Well-Known Member
For what it's worth we had a USMC band touring NZ about 4-5 years ago, tied in with celebrations of the 70th (?) anniversary of the US deployment to NZ in WWII. They did a concert in Wgtn for dignitaries from both sides, plus a public concert and also performed at some regional centres that had links to the US bases here at the time (Paekakariki, Featherstone etc). No oposition reported at any of these activities.
There are Coast Guard cutters that visit American Samoa regularly, and sometimes work in with NZ fisheries surveillance activities in the neighbourhood (and I understand are keen to do more of same). So that would be an easy solution.
My guess is that the US will want to take a visible step in restoring relations to normalcy and send a proper Navy vessel. Probably a frigate, or something less fighty like a LSD (the USS Pearl Harbour has embarked plenty of NZ personnel on Pacific Partnership HADR exercises in the past).
Most of the former anti-nuclear protesters are probably busy applying for Winston's Gold Card and complaining about the waiting list for hip replacements. I really don't think a US ship visit would be a big deal.
I agree something like a LSD alongside some form of HADR exercise . If not a ship, I wouldn't be surprised if a P-3 or P-8 turned up to stay a bit more out-of-the-way.
I don't think they have any Frigates left to send - the closest being the LCS.
Perhaps an ice-breaker on its way to the Antarctic?
kiwipatriot69
Active Member
Funny you should say that,some of them radicals are respectible teachers now, John minto teaches at my old high school.:rel showing his age. Surprised this tour didnt happen by now, given all the military exerzises we done with USA like rimpac, talisman sabre, southern katipo, and the smaller ops in between.
I agree with htbrst, the USN sadly doesn't have any frigates left in service. The last OHP FFG was decommissioned last month (here). The renaming of the LCS to frigate earlier in the year applies to as yet unbuilt ships (the 33rd hull onwards from memory, though there is still doubt about what configuration the 25th - 32nd hulls will be -see here).
The RNZN's birthday is 1st October. That may be a little early for the USCG icebreaker. I expect that the USN will still be trying to minimise costs - what is likely to be closest? Something based in Darwin? Maybe Guam, Singapore or Pearl Harbor?
I am curious about what the UK could send. A Type 23, or an RFA?
Chis73
I wouldn't rule anything out from the US mainland as they could just as cost efficiently divert one heading out to NZ as they could send one from Singapore then back. It will likely be based around what ever ships they have moving back and forth at that particular time, Not anything set aside specifically for a single port visit.
I also wouldn't rule out a Destroyer. Wont be any Frigates (none left) or LCS (Too few), And the LSD thought while possible I don't think will be put forth purely on economical reasons when you take into account that it is as large as a Burke and has a similar sized crew so I dont see it's operating costs being much if any less.
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Any chance the USN would make use of it and turn it into a bit of a round NZ/Aus doing multiple port visits? Let people get up and close to a Burke and see exactly what we missed out on
40 deg south
Well-Known Member
DSME to receive USD3.7 billion bailout - IHS Jane's 360
DSME (aka Daewoo shipyards) has been in a tight financial corner for a while, and seems to have come to a deal with its main creditors.Note that DSME is almost a third owned by a state owned bank - the chance of the Korean gov't letting them fail is exceedingly low.
Daewoo, along with Hyundai Heavy Industries. has been shortlisted by NZ for the Endeavour replacement project (and is also battling Navantia for the RAN tanker contract). Hopefully they will be willing to cut margins to the bone in order to get an order on the books from a secure customer.
Hyundai's own finances are also pretty stretched, so they won't be willing to lose the work without a fight.
As far as I can make out (caution - not my area of expertise) both shipyards expanded capacity prior to the Global Financial Crisis, and were badly caught out when their customers started backing out of orders. They promptly switched resources into the booming offshore oil and gas industry, only to have that hit by the oil price drop. Meanwhile, cheaper Chinese yards are taking their low-end business, just like the Koreans did to the Japanes yards a couple of decades ago.
DSME (aka Daewoo shipyards) has been in a tight financial corner for a while, and seems to have come to a deal with its main creditors.Note that DSME is almost a third owned by a state owned bank - the chance of the Korean gov't letting them fail is exceedingly low.
Daewoo, along with Hyundai Heavy Industries. has been shortlisted by NZ for the Endeavour replacement project (and is also battling Navantia for the RAN tanker contract). Hopefully they will be willing to cut margins to the bone in order to get an order on the books from a secure customer.
Hyundai's own finances are also pretty stretched, so they won't be willing to lose the work without a fight.
As far as I can make out (caution - not my area of expertise) both shipyards expanded capacity prior to the Global Financial Crisis, and were badly caught out when their customers started backing out of orders. They promptly switched resources into the booming offshore oil and gas industry, only to have that hit by the oil price drop. Meanwhile, cheaper Chinese yards are taking their low-end business, just like the Koreans did to the Japanes yards a couple of decades ago.
kiwipatriot69
Active Member
Could this end up in a better deal for our Endevour, Manuwanui replacements, or the possible OPV addition?
40 deg south
Well-Known Member
Given the world has too many shipyards chasing too little work, NZ should be able to get very good deals on any vessels ordered in the next few years. One key point will be choosing suppliers that don't try to recover their lost margins by cutting corners on quality.
The Endeavour replacement contract should be signed in the first quarter of next year, with the Manawanui/LOSC vessel about a year behind. As for the OPV, I don't think there has been any information released to the public about likely timing.
kiwi in exile
Active Member
I've been away for a while so I am doing a bit of catching up. NM its interesting that you seem to be saying that Chinese strat/pol thinking hasnt changed much in 2000 years. I would have thought that the shift from the policies of the cultural revolution to todays 'socialism with chinese characteristics' is a dramatic shift. The fact that they are now trying to clain new 'disputed territories suggests some kind of shift. I acknowledge that I am not a China expert. You seem to have good insight into the Chinese "psyche".
It's not that their strategic thinking and politics haven't changed because they surely have, but it is the inherent historical and cultural values that inform their construction of their strategy and policies. The term "socialism with Chinese characteristics" basically describes it, with the emphasis on Chinese characteristics. The problem with the Nine Dashed Line is that there is no real historical precedent to the Chinese claims. They are really reaching with that claim. What is happening here is they are effectively trying to invent and then enforce a "new normal" which again is a traditional Chinese ploy IIRC. The thing about trying to interpret or understand Chinese moves is not always analysing them in a traditional western context and world view because that will give a flawed analysis. They have to be analysed through a Chinese lens and world view. That's the hard bit and I for one cannot do it, however being aware of the issue is always a start.
The problem for NZ is that a significant amount of our trade is shipped through or close to those waters and if the dispute erupts into warfare then our trade will be significantly disrupted which will have serious impacts upon our economy. We are also part of the FPDA and if Singapore or Malaysia are threatened or attacked then we are involved. Australia is in the same predicament except that they understand it and are aware that their SLOC need to be protected, unlike NZ who are sea blind.
Yes I think logistic type ships to support Southern Katipo like scenarios and goodwill visits will be the first to visit NZ for awhile yet to break the ice and soothe the peaceniks. Pure combat vessels will be too big a leap and politically charged just yet and either way we can still visit them (Rimpac, TS etc) with our frigates for those options to be excercised this early in the 'relationship' at least.
A support ship vs a destroyer dramatically lessens any protesters visions of glory and exposure to the media.
40 deg south
Well-Known Member
http://navy.mil.nz/downloads/pdf/navy-today/nt194.pdf
November issue of Navy Today is out.
Lots of tributes to the retiring CN, and updates on the various vessels.
P12 has a little procurement-related info. There is a description of the roles the LOSC will be expected to perform, and this note on the platform.
November issue of Navy Today is out.
Lots of tributes to the retiring CN, and updates on the various vessels.
P12 has a little procurement-related info. There is a description of the roles the LOSC will be expected to perform, and this note on the platform.
NZ may have once again fallen on its feet, as long as they can get the tender out quickly (early 2016 is promised, for a 2019/20 delivery). The price of oil has halved in the past couple of years, and there is a large stock of laid-up or part-built offshore oil vessels parked up around the world, plus dozens of yards hungry for work. The timing couldn't be better to extract a good deal.
RNZN is starting to talk more as if the 3rd OPV is a done deal rather than a wish-list item. All the talk of it being ice-strengthened makes me think it will be more adapted to southern waters than the current OPVs, and therefore a new design.