New Zealand Army

[Cadredave]

I hear a fixed 4x ACOG site for combat units, with something better available for open country ops. A variety of barrel lengths will be purchased. Doesn't sound like a call has been made for everyone else yet.

Sounds like the company arms room concept is likely to get the green light with some latitude on bells and whistles at the company OCs discretion.

The new IW is a major step forward I believe it uses open architecture to adapt to changes in technology which was a key deficiency with the Steyr.

1. The Trijicon Advanced Combat Optic Gun-sight (ACOG) 4 x 32. TA31NZ-5.56 is the standard and will continue to be the standard Individual Weapon Sight (IWS) for the Crown IW. The procurement of the ACOG for the new IW is not a Contract Deliverable for this RFT.

The reticle was designed by Combat School in collaboration with trijicon engineers , specially designed to use a system commonly used by NZ Infantry to bring firers on target bloody useful for long range and firing into cross winds.

Company arms room concept is long time overdue, majority of CS & CSS will be very different to the Infantry they will be fitted out to a basic standard.

 

[Cadredave]

The RNZN will like the differing barrel lengths then, because long barreled rifles can create difficulties in the close confinements found onboard boarded vessels. Whereas the security platoon would use the long barreled weapons when ashore.

Hey Paul,

Not every weapon will be getting the short barrels its my belief that the primary boarding weapon for Navy is the M3 Benelli.

from the RFT you see the following:

1.1 NZDF intends to field the IWs in a number of configurations, depending on respective unit’s operational outputs.

If they can convince Capability branch that they require the ability to change barrel length then it will come with a standard 502mm barrel. 7000 IW coming equipped with full ancillaries then that leaves 1800 for war stocks to be held in Trentham with LM.

Also only 1000 suppressors are being acquired which means only the Combat Arms and a very small amount will be held for CS units who are in direct support of the Battalions so IMO that could be the same amount for short barrels as well, anyway things could change during the contract negotiations LMT could convince the NZDF to go the other way and purchase a short barrel for all 8800 and procure a small number of 502mm (20 inch) barrels instead.

Nothing better than a Grunt shooting a new IW system with all the bells and whistles on.

Dave

 

[kiwi in exile]

I hear a fixed 4x ACOG site for combat units, with something better available for open country ops. A variety of barrel lengths will be purchased. Doesn't sound like a call has been made for everyone else yet.

On a 5.56 rifle, and ACOG is probably ideal for open country. I'd think if you were in a situation where you needed a better sight, you would probably want a bigger bullet too. Hence the 7.62 LSW and DMRs.

The Aussies new EF88 has entered service. Apparently there are equiping their tier 3 soldiers with a 1.5 x ACOG as their weapons sight (much like the old steyr). While this may make sense economically, I'd rather see all rifles and soldiers equipped/trained with better optics, not '2nd rate sights for 2nd line troops'. Afghanistan has taught us that there is no front line.

 

[Cadredave]

On a 5.56 rifle, and ACOG is probably ideal for open country. I'd think if you were in a situation where you needed a better sight, you would probably want a bigger bullet too. Hence the 7.62 LSW and DMRs.

The Aussies new EF88 has entered service. Apparently there are equiping their tier 3 soldiers with a 1.5 x ACOG as their weapons sight (much like the old steyr). While this may make sense economically, I'd rather see all rifles and soldiers equipped/trained with better optics, not '2nd rate sights for 2nd line troops'. Afghanistan has taught us that there is no front line.

ADF and NZDF are following the same plan in regards to there IW roll out, Tier 3 soldiers do not and will not conduct the same operations as Tier 1 & 2 soldiers so therefore do not require the same weapon ancillaries on their weapons, just like CONOPS dictate systems on an ship it is no different to Land Ops they will have the same basic weapon but do not require a ACOG to reach out and touch somebody at 600m +.

Afghanistan's did not teach anything new about there being no front line at all it did however reinforce a lesson learned from Vietnam about COIN operations and since we did not deploy as a doctrinal force in Bamiyan any real lessons learnt can not be applied across the board to Army.

161 or 163 Bty didnt deploy neither did a full on CS, or CSS element we sent a bastardised make do force structure that will not be repeated anywhere likely again so again any lessons learnt cant be applied.

The majority of CS & CSS require a weapon system more in the range of a PDW than a full on Assault rifle with a 4x32 ACOG its overkill, CSS role is not to seek out & engage the enemy, to hold & seize ground to repel attack by day or night regardless of season or terrain hence the reason they are tier 3 and not 2.

The real lesson learnt was that you must deploy a force structure that is well balanced, trained and resourced to achieve a clearly defined Mission. Operations are not there to reward someone to get a gong which was rampant through the purple organisation.

 

[Raven22]

While this may make sense economically, I'd rather see all rifles and soldiers equipped/trained with better optics, not '2nd rate sights for 2nd line troops'. Afghanistan has taught us that there is no front line.

One thing Afghan taught us is that you can't just throw fancy equipment at people and expect them to magically know how to use it. If soldiers aren't trained to use fancy optics, there is no point giving it to them. Since CS and CSS soldiers are never going to receive the same training as riflemen, why give them the same equipment? It would just go to waste.

To use an Australian example, at one point pretty much all soldiers deployed to Afghan got issued an ACOG, yet received nothing but the two hour qualification training and a quick zero. What was quickly worked out was that most (non-infantry) soldiers were actually shooting worse than with the the old 1.5x donut sight that they had trained with their whole careers and knew how to use very well.

Fancy equipment without training is wasted, and is money that can be better spent elsewhere.

 

[kiwi in exile]

The Firearm blog has some more info regarding the IW replacement:
New Zealand Army Selects LMT To Replace Steyr AUG - The Firearm Blog
Not an official announcement, just passing on what I have read elsewhere.

UPDATE: Steve (the editor) here. We have a number of readers in New Zealand. Two of them both reported that the NZ Army have been referring to these rifles as the “M4″. I am not sure if this is an official designation, a model number or if it literally references a US mil-spec M4 Carbine (probably not).

Soldiers who say the rifles say the Army was testing two versions, one with a 16″ barrel and one with an 18″ barrel.
lmt

LMT CQB16ODGB (Olive Drab Green)

Apparently LMT rifles test at the Burnham Military Camp a couple of weeks ago resemble the LMT CQB16ODGB (although probably is not this exact model) which retails for $2,100. The CQB16ODGB features:

* CQB MRP® Upper Receiver (ODG).
* 16″ Chrome Lined 1:7″ Twist H-Bar Contour 5.56 Barrel.
* Standard Semi Auto Bolt Carrier Group.
* Tactical Charging Handle Assembly.
* Defender Lower (ODG) with SOPMOD Buttstock and Standard Trigger Group.
* Tactical Adjustable Flip Up Rear Sight.
* Tactical Flip Up Front Sight.

Apparently the NZ Army uses, or is planning on using, heavy 77 grain 5.56mm ammunition.

Thanks to all our Kiwi friends for sharing information with us.

Phil Note: While we would love to tell you and show you the exact rifle common government contract restrictions prevent the company from sharing that information.

According to LMT, the CQB16ODGB is a direct gas weapon.

 

[40 deg south]

The Firearm blog has some more info regarding the IW replacement:
New Zealand Army Selects LMT To Replace Steyr AUG - The Firearm Blog
Not an official announcement, just passing on what I have read elsewhere.



According to LMT, the CQB16ODGB is a direct gas weapon.

Thanks for that link, kiwi.

The comments thread is an entertaining read - NZ popular culture from sheep to Peter Jackson to Xena all get a good airing!

Unfortunately, no more actual information on the chosen weapon.

 

[kiwi in exile]

Thanks for that link, kiwi.

The comments thread is an entertaining read - NZ popular culture from sheep to Peter Jackson to Xena all get a good airing!

Unfortunately, no more actual information on the chosen weapon.

Yes, it will be good to see what other info comes out about the trials and other contenders. Hopefully there is a detailed NZDF?MINDEF press release or an article in Army news od NZDF you tube vid. Hopefully... Finger crossed.

Direct impingement vs gas piston is an interesting debate.
Traditional M16/M4 are gas impingement. Steyr, AKs are gas piston.
LMT has both direct impingement and gas piston versions. Arguement behing gas piston AR variants is that gas piston is more reliable, especially at high rates of fire. IE: HK416 has many advocates regarding its gas piston operation (increased reliability, especially in short barrel, high rate of fire versions IE special forces, tollerates water, sand, mud better. 16" barrel 416 has been adopted by USMC as a SAW replacement.). Some argue that gas impingement systems are perfectly reliable as long as there are kept clean and lubed. I have read online that LMT gas piston rifle is accurate and reliable, but compared to the 416 is a lot cheaper, has les recoil and has better parts commonality with other AR platforms.

It would be interesting to see what way we go. Will also be interesting to see if/how NZSAS upgrade their rifles, whether they go with a piston system given their role.

 

[40 deg south]

Yes, it will be good to see what other info comes out about the trials and other contenders. Hopefully there is a detailed NZDF?MINDEF press release or an article in Army news od NZDF you tube vid. Hopefully... Finger crossed.

Direct impingement vs gas piston is an interesting debate.
Traditional M16/M4 are gas impingement. Steyr, AKs are gas piston.
LMT has both direct impingement and gas piston versions. Arguement behing gas piston AR variants is that gas piston is more reliable, especially at high rates of fire. IE: HK416 has many advocates regarding its gas piston operation (increased reliability, especially in short barrel, high rate of fire versions IE special forces, tollerates water, sand, mud better. 16" barrel 416 has been adopted by USMC as a SAW replacement.). Some argue that gas impingement systems are perfectly reliable as long as there are kept clean and lubed. I have read online that LMT gas piston rifle is accurate and reliable, but compared to the 416 is a lot cheaper, has les recoil and has better parts commonality with other AR platforms.

It would be interesting to see what way we go. Will also be interesting to see if/how NZSAS upgrade their rifles, whether they go with a piston system given their role.

New Zealand selects LMT rifle for Steyr replacement - IHS Jane's 360

Janes is tipping the chosen replacement as LMT's CQB16 which from their website appears to come in both gas and piston versions, so we are none the wiser.

Janes also confirms Australia has made a different choice to NZ for an automatic grenade launcher.

Australia to buy 200 grenade launchers - IHS Jane's 360

 

[kiwi in exile]

The firearm blog now has a post "confirming" NZ has selected the LMT CQB16, based on Janes reported 'understanding' that that is the selected rifle. Again, no confirmation or announcement from NZG/NZDF. Some of you may allready be aware of this.

Confirmed, LMT to supply NZDF with CQB16 - The Firearm Blog

Interesting caption under the NZ sodier in afghanistan pic regarding a 'green dazzler'

 

[40 deg south]

Mexico participates in first amphibious exercise with US - IHS Jane's 360

Now that NZ and the US are best buddies again, NZ is making up for lost time with attendance at exercises. While the focus in on the first Mexican participation, NZ is also making an appearance at the 'Dawn Blitz' exercise. This is the bi-annual amphibious warfare exercise held near San Diego with the USMC. I haven't seen any info on the NZ participation. Presumably coming so soon after Talisman Sabre, it will be very small.

Australia there as an observer rather than a participant, according to one report.

Couple more links below.

Dawn Blitz 2015 | SanDiegoUnionTribune.com

https://www.facebook.com/ExerciseDawnBlitz/timeline?ref=page_internal

 

[40 deg south]

Defence Technology Review : DTR SEP 2015, Page 1

Page 43 of the latest Defence Technology Review advises that NZ is working on the LAV upgrade, with an indicative business case going to Cabinet by year-end.

I assume this is seeking the initial green light to proceed with developing detailed requirements, in which case it should be rubber-stamped pretty quickly.

Though there may well be some hard questions about the number of LAVs that will receive the upgrade, given the total fleet appears to be in excess of NZ requirements. Probably a couple of years away from going to tender, i suspect.

NZ procurement process outlined below, in case anyone needs a refresher.
NZDF - Capital Equipment Acquisition

 

[RegR]

Defence Technology Review : DTR SEP 2015, Page 1

Page 43 of the latest Defence Technology Review advises that NZ is working on the LAV upgrade, with an indicative business case going to Cabinet by year-end.

I assume this is seeking the initial green light to proceed with developing detailed requirements, in which case it should be rubber-stamped pretty quickly.

Though there may well be some hard questions about the number of LAVs that will receive the upgrade, given the total fleet appears to be in excess of NZ requirements. Probably a couple of years away from going to tender, i suspect.

NZ procurement process outlined below, in case anyone needs a refresher.
NZDF - Capital Equipment Acquisition

Hopefully they tag them onto the end of the Canadian LAV 6.0 program as the production line will already be running and in full swing and by then any issues and improvements can be addressed and implemented more easily as they will have been already tested and in use by them for some time.

Makes sense having commonality with the other major user of our variant LAV and surely they have done their homework on the upgrade for best option. Their project sounds similar to NZs overall goal in terms of future proofing (V hull, sensors, re-power etc) therefore seems like a no brainer, oh no I may have just jinxed it.

 

[ngatimozart]

Now that NZ and the US are best buddies again, NZ is making up for lost time with attendance at exercises. While the focus in on the first Mexican participation, NZ is also making an appearance at the 'Dawn Blitz' exercise. This is the bi-annual amphibious warfare exercise held near San Diego with the USMC. I haven't seen any info on the NZ participation. Presumably coming so soon after Talisman Sabre, it will be very small.

NZ Herald ran this story last Sunday, Kiwi soldiers engage in war exercises. 102 soldiers from Victor Company, 1/1 RNZIR are involved, which in NZ terms is a reasonably large component for an exercise. This is also, IIRC, the third time in the last two years or so that we have have exercised with US and Japanese forces. My own personal view is that it would be advantageous for the NZG and NZDF to have closer military ties with the Japanese as well as the Indians and Indonesians. Maybe add the Vietnamese to that mix.

 

[kiwi in exile]

NZ Herald ran this story last Sunday, Kiwi soldiers engage in war exercises. 102 soldiers from Victor Company, 1/1 RNZIR are involved, which in NZ terms is a reasonably large component for an exercise. This is also, IIRC, the third time in the last two years or so that we have have exercised with US and Japanese forces. My own personal view is that it would be advantageous for the NZG and NZDF to have closer military ties with the Japanese as well as the Indians and Indonesians. Maybe add the Vietnamese to that mix.

Here a video of NZers in the exercise. This website also has photos if you have a look around. Theres a dawn blits FB page too.
https://www.dvidshub.net/video/422857/kiwis-hone-urban-combat-tactics-iit#.VfetNM6ifs0

The urban training facility looks impressive. Quite a different set up to our new one
NZDF Battle Training Facility | Ebert Construction
Would like to see us get a similar one here

 

[Cadredave]

NZ Herald ran this story last Sunday, Kiwi soldiers engage in war exercises. 102 soldiers from Victor Company, 1/1 RNZIR are involved, which in NZ terms is a reasonably large component for an exercise. This is also, IIRC, the third time in the last two years or so that we have have exercised with US and Japanese forces. My own personal view is that it would be advantageous for the NZG and NZDF to have closer military ties with the Japanese as well as the Indians and Indonesians. Maybe add the Vietnamese to that mix.

For a Land force who has refocused back in the Pacific exercising with India & Indonesia isn't going to happen any time soon, Those countries are not part of ABCA or follow NATO SOP,s or Doctrine which standardizes the rest of us they are not compatible in any way shape or form.

 

[Cadredave]

Here a video of NZers in the exercise. This website also has photos if you have a look around. Theres a dawn blits FB page too.
https://www.dvidshub.net/video/422857/kiwis-hone-urban-combat-tactics-iit#.VfetNM6ifs0

The urban training facility looks impressive. Quite a different set up to our new one
NZDF Battle Training Facility | Ebert Construction
Would like to see us get a similar one here

The Erbert facility is for one Unit only who reside in Auckland it the new killing house for the Group boys

 

[Cadredave]

Hopefully they tag them onto the end of the Canadian LAV 6.0 program as the production line will already be running and in full swing and by then any issues and improvements can be addressed and implemented more easily as they will have been already tested and in use by them for some time.

Makes sense having commonality with the other major user of our variant LAV and surely they have done their homework on the upgrade for best option. Their project sounds similar to NZs overall goal in terms of future proofing (V hull, sensors, re-power etc) therefore seems like a no brainer, oh no I may have just jinxed it.

We have been a part of the LAV 3 group for a long time now and are very aware of what exactly US & CAN are doing to upgrade the vehicles. OC Mounted wing Combat School & Cap Branch have developed the user requirements inline with what our Allies and our own lessons learnt have taught us as well.

Nothing beats having one of your own AFV being attacked by an IED so all the techies can crawl all over it with a fine tooth comb, combat loading them way past what the manufacture recommended which strained the transmission dust getting into all those places that were meant to be sensitive etc so in short Im very sure Army has done there due diligence in regards to what Army requires for an upgrade but more importantly have identified and planned for a mid life upgrade which never happened before.

 

[kiwi in exile]

The Erbert facility is for one Unit only who reside in Auckland it the new killing house for the Group boys

No chance they would share their toys? Seems a shame. Would be nice if infantry and everyone else that is likely to be deployed could have regular time in a decent CQB training environment. Sending a company overseas once a year- a lot of people will miss out. I know that the army has made use of redzone christchurch and a fire service training facility in the Nth Island. Maybe Peter Jackson or James cameron could build a decent movie set here and donate to NZDF when done.

 

[Ranger25]

We have been a part of the LAV 3 group for a long time now and are very aware of what exactly US & CAN are doing to upgrade the vehicles. OC Mounted wing Combat School & Cap Branch have developed the user requirements inline with what our Allies and our own lessons learnt have taught us as well.

Nothing beats having one of your own AFV being attacked by an IED so all the techies can crawl all over it with a fine tooth comb, combat loading them way past what the manufacture recommended which strained the transmission dust getting into all those places that were meant to be sensitive etc so in short Im very sure Army has done there due diligence in regards to what Army requires for an upgrade but more importantly have identified and planned for a mid life upgrade which never happened before.

LTG McMaster has stated his goal for the US Stykers is to have a 50-50 mix of 30mm and Javelin turrets to increase overall lethality of the Brigades